Where are we all at currently?

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by richardb70, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. richardb70

    richardb70
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    So my aging Honda Jazz is making all sorts of noises these days and bits have stopped working. Work have got some free charge points and I only do 40 miles a day commuting, so an EV looks a good option. We have another petrol car in the family for big trips.

    However, it's all looking horrendously pricey. New is barking mad. Second hand is better but only for models 6 / 7 years old and I'm a little wary of those. Finance deals, hmm, seen some but they don't look especially attractive for 10,000 miles.

    What's everyone doing these days? Is anyone in a holding pattern waiting for a big explosion of choice and lower prices? Mainly looking at something like a Leaf, 30kWh or higher ideally, but wondering if I should hold off for a year or so.
     
  2. LV426

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    I can tell you where I am at. I own a new (last November) Hyundai Ioniq Electric. I have driven about 6000 miles in it. Hypothetically, if it were to be (say) irretrievably stolen off my drive, would I replace it with the exact same thing? Or would I be grateful for the opportunity to think again and buy something else?

    Yes, I would replace it like for like. In a heartbeat. Once you get over the need to plan a long trip differently (rare in my case) then in just about every respect it's a better thing - to drive, to use, to pay for, to fuel, to ride in......etc., than anything more conventional that I have experienced. IMO.
     
  3. DrPhil

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    I'm a 24kWh Leaf driver (over 3 years now) and I'm close to pulling the trigger on either a Hyundai Kona or a Kia Niro.

    I always swore I'd never buy a brand new car again, did it with a Ford Focus when I was 21 and stupid and it was an exceptionally bad decision. Couldn't afford it after the first year's free insurance and lost a fortune in depreciation over the one year.

    However EVs are barely depreciating these days. The Ioniq is not far off full price even second hand and it's quite rare that you find a second hand Ioniq as they are in high demand (unsurprising as they're probably the best EV on the road at the minute). Even the older cars like the 24/30kWh Leaf have actually increased in price over the last year.

    With that pretty negligible depreciation I feel a lot better about a new purchase. Plus with a good long warranty (5 for the Hyundai and 7 for the Kia) I'd happily keep either car for at least 5 years.

    Either one will also do over 200 miles even with my notoriously heavy foot so I'd be delighted to not have to rely on public charging.
     
  4. neilball

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    I had a Leaf 24kWh on the ridiculously cheap 2 year PCP deal from Nissan, just a little over £100/month plus £2.5k deposit, and kept it for 2.5 years thanks to a term extension while the new 40kWh model was waiting to be launched. when that was returned I went for a 2 year PCH deal on a Kia Soul EV and got it for £200/month for 10k miles/year. The prices have picked up a little since then but there were no EV deals that got close to this.

    i’m happy to stick with short term deals just now as there are plenty of new models coming in the next 12-24 months, so next time I might be tempted into a much longer deal for something with a 40kWh battery (which would be the sweet spot for our second car).
     
  5. PRESSTOG

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    There is a growing market opening its eyes to EVs so second hands prices are hardening fast. (Mainly as a second car thats FREE to run for the school run and local trips).

    I would expect this to be the case for at least the next 4 to 5 years while there is such a small supply of used and people are wanting to get on the bandwagon...

    The general populous seem to be opening up to dipping a toe in the water and trying an EV as a second vehicle.

    Nobody is making a supply of NEW second hand price cars, so the ones out there are in demand. Until the fleets start picking up bulk amounts of new EVs and filter down into the second hand market at 2 or 3 years of age there is no reason the prices should soften.

    The car supermarkets are starting to get into the PHEV supply chain, I noticed this week Motorpoint had picked up over 50 2 year old BMW 330e and were knocking them out at under 18k. But there is no volume EVs out there for them to get interested in yet.
     
  6. DOBLY

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    How old / how many miles is the Jazz - shouldn't be expensive to fix, surely?
    Have you maintained it, or are things falling apart due to neglect?
    If the Jazz were running correctly, would you be on the lookout for a new commuter car?

    Sounds to me as though you are wanting something for (almost) nothing. Thing's aren't quite at the point of there being electric cars that you can buy for a couple of grand and sell on after a year or two for the same money if you are lucky and don't encounter an expensive (fatal) problem. That day is a long way off, and indeed may never come again.

    As there is so little to go wrong with an electric car, the secondhand market is high - couple that with limited availability and you can see how things ended up this way. Give it a few more years, when hopefully range between charges is improved significantly, or add in a horror story or two about replacement batteries catching fire or electric motors melting down (both v. unlikely) and there may be "bargains" to be had.

    I plan to keep my 2003 daily driver running until there is an electric car to replace it - there is nothing much wrong with it at the moment and no real reason to replace it with one of the current battery electric cars, as I don't think they are "there" yet, and I would like to build a house that would be able to "fuel" the new electric car (& house) for free via the sunlight collected on the roof / stored in batteries, super-capacitors or whatever.

    As for prices for new cars, I don't think that the 2025 Ford Fiesta (electric) will be much different in price to a 2018 Ford Fiesta (petrol/diesel) once inflation has been factored in, and despite there being so much less "stuff" under the bonnet in an electric car, the savings won't be passed on to the buyer, especially as Ford will be experiencing a reduced revenue stream from servicing once electric cars become more mainstream. This leads us on to hybrids, which will be the prevalent type of propulsion system for a good few years to come (to mitigate the above situation and pave the way towards a fully electric future).
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  7. RMCF

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    tbh, you'd be mad not to consider going full electric.

    Keep checking the 2nd hand market, you'll get a good bargain some day, but you'll have to move fast to get a car thats a good price, they don't still around on the shelf long these days.
     
  8. richardb70

    richardb70
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    Thanks everyone, much appreciated.

    So the Jazz is 15 years old, and bits are failing (understandably!). The sunroof doesn't budge, the radio doesn't work, the CD player doesn't eject, it doesn't take an air-con recharge for long (which is murder currently), the odd strange noise going at speed etc. Yes, most of these are cosmetic, and the Jazz is pretty reliable but I'd like something a bit more up to date anyway. And going all electric seems a good idea.

    I'm a little reluctant to consider the old 24kWh Leafs as I'm not sure they'd have much of a resale value when things pick up. Maybe I'm wrong. I also do the odd work trip which would be a stretch for the mileage, hence looking at 30kWh models. Second hand seems to be £14k+.

    Leasing could be a good option, I saw that DriveElectric are going a decent deal for the Kia Soul EV at the mo, £1200 down, £199 per month. The miles are small though so I've asked them for a quote. if anyone knows of a similar deal with 10,000 miles then please shout! Maybe we should have a PCP/PCH deal thread here.
     
  9. neilball

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    don’t hang around if you want a Soul EV from DE - according to those currently signing up over at SpeakEV they have just taken their last delivery from Kia and when these are all gone there are no more until the new model with bigger batteries arrives (probably next year).
     
  10. jenam93

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    If it is only for commuting, why not a little Renault Zoe? £6K will pick you up a 2015 Dynamique Nav with low mileage from Renault themselves.

    The slightly bigger battery came in sometime in 2016 but even the original will do your commute easy enough.

    As always, confirm for the price whether you are renting the battery from Renault or if you own it and consider costs both ways accordingly.
     
  11. PRESSTOG

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    There was no slightly bigger battery in the 2016 Zoe. The Zoe was 22kwh usable from Launch till the end of 2016 when they started taking orders for the 41kwh usable battery with deliveries starting about March 17

    The only thing that changed in 2016 was the move to the Renault own motor (R variant) which dropped rapid charging from 43kw to 22kw the Q variant was and still is still sold with 43kw rapid charging

    And the cheap £6k cars all come mandatory battery lease which if you do low mileage can work out as much as you would be spending on petrol.
     
  12. jenam93

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    My bad, I had recently been reading the WhatCar article on used eco cars and then on the Zoe which suggested it:
    Used Renault ZOE review - 2013-Present Servicing, MPG, Insurance | What Car?
    "Prices for the early cars start at a whisker under £5000, at the time of writing, to which you’d have to add the cost of the battery lease for most of them. Up the budget to £6000 and you’ll find plenty of good, clean used 2015 models, while £7000 is about the starting point for 2016 cars with the newer battery pack. "
    and
    Best used Renault ZOE review - 2013-Present | What Car?
    "If you can afford to buy the post-2015 Zoe, with its 41kWh battery providing a much longer range, we would recommend it."
     
  13. PRESSTOG

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    They are great cars, and the early cars are very good value its just you need to factor in that battery lease, not sure as mine is owned battery but I seem to remember it is about £120 a year for 12k miles.. (And no option for unlimited miles like on the newer ones)... So as the car ages that takes up an even higher proportion of its value.

    It will be interesting to see if Renault do something to absorb the lease costs when cars are traded in and sell them as battery owned at a higher price like Nissan did with the leaf.

    As for the date, probably just a typo in the article, there were none in the UK till 2017 and will mid 2017 the battery owned 41kwh ones are like rocking horse droppings.
     
  14. richardb70

    richardb70
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    Many thanks everyone. I've no interest in a car with a battery lease, mileage for commuting alone is 10,000 and I have to do the odd trip for work that lands me in 120 miles for a day territory. Hence a little wary of the Leaf 24s, I think a used Leaf 30 would be best if I go with Nissan. Maybe I should have a look at Zoes but I've read some horror stories.

    On a related note, has anyone bought from Just EVs? They've got some good prices but seem to be largely a mail order company. If I want to test drive a car, it's a four hour round trip :(.
     
  15. IronGiant

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    Stay well clear, we don't get that sort of range out of our newish 24kWh one. You'd definitely need to recharge it during the day.
     
  16. richardb70

    richardb70
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    Thanks everyone, so I've put a deposit down on a two year old Leaf 30 (Acenta). Can't wait!
     
  17. nickC29

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    Nice choice! The 2015 Leaf has a higher than average reliability rating which is important cause reliability is the #1 biggest concern when people are shopping for EVs.
     
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  18. la gran siete

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    Apparently EV cars will eventually be cheaper than ICE cars but not until 2025, therefore if it was doew to me I would probably buy a stop gap EV car. There are plenty of sub £10k Zoes (as well as few Leafs around that price or a bit higher) available and here is a battery hire chart Battery hire | Renault Finance | Services | Renault UK
     
  19. Jimx26

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    24kw Leaf. Suits my needs right now as my commute is only a 30 mile round trip and we use it at weekends for local journeys.
    We also have a 4 series for longer journeys but looking at replacing it with a hybrid of some description in a couple of months.
     
  20. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
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    +me to this thread

    Looking at an EV as a second car for local runs to take some miles away from our VW Caravelle which is getting on a bit - open to new or second hand depending on what deals/value is out there. Could easily charge at home. Not that fussed about range but out of touch with what is possible nowadays 100 miles would be great - 60/70/80 fine.
     
  21. IronGiant

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    A second hand 24kWh leaf would typically give you a 75 mile range, The 30kWh will be a bit better but surprisingly can be had for similar prices albeit with higher mileages than a comparable 24kWh.

    e.g. upload_2018-8-24_15-35-48.png
     
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  22. 1jim

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    we have a 24kwh leaf as our second car- ideal commute car for the wife- who does 20miles each way to work. leaves pleanty in reserve for detours and errands etc. we bought this second hand. reduced fuel bill for the wifes car from over £110 a month (on a picanto) to £30 a month.

    I have a hybrid niro, i have slightly less of a commute but want the ability to use for longer trips without worrying about charging. Reduced petrol from over £100 a month to £50 a month overnight. Would love to go phev but the extra expense doesnt make financial sense at the minute.
     
  23. IanW1977

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    I bought a 2 year old Leaf Acenta last August for £8500 battery owned from the main dealer.
    Includes 2 free services and MOT guarantee for 2 years and free Pod point installation.

    Just had to get 4 new tyres though. It's on 30k miles now and has had no issues. 85 mile range currently, Down to about 60/65 last winter where it was pretty much minus temperatures all the time.
    Not the most comfortable seats you seem to sit on them up very high but then I am usually a passenger in the wifes Volvo so your spoilt with those seats.

    I commute daily about 25 miles and the car is used as a taxi for the kids so lots of short trips which is pretty much what I wanted to go Electric for.
     
  24. IanW1977

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    Wouldn't fancy a 2 year old plus car with 2k miles on. Sounds like it's been sat around most of the time.
    About 20 miles per week on average ?
     
  25. IronGiant

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    Probably less of an issue with an EV than an ICE. You don't need to warm up the engine for a start :)
     
  26. IanW1977

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    I'm thinking purely from Batteries, Tyres, Brakes.
     
  27. LV426

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    ...and in the context of an EV you need to think differently - at least as far as battery and brakes are concerned.

    12v Battery: charged by electronics from the traction battery when needed; not by a belt driven from the motor, and therefore, not necessarily only when running. No huge drain on it to turn a starter motor every time the car is started; it's used ONLY to serve the ancillaries - instruments, electronics, lights, etc. So, no comparison with use in an ICE.

    Brakes: not used most of the time in an EV. Regeneration means brakes are only used at extremely low speeds (and in emergencies) to bring the thing to a stop and hold it; not in routine deceleration.

    Tyres - no difference to speak of.
     
  28. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    I’m still in a holding pattern. I like the iPace from Jaguar, also very interested in the Audi Q6 etron. Still think they are too expensive. I will wait another two years I think.
     
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  29. stiv674

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    I'm currently looking to change my diesel Mitsubishi Outlander but apart from the new PHEV version of the same there's nothing available of note. They're either too expensive or wrong type of car.

    I'd be interested in an e-Tiguan or a hybrid version, or something along those lines...
     
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  30. stiv674

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    Just been looking at new SUV hybrids, Audi Q7 and BMW 5 series, neither exactly accessible to the average person. Why not the Q3 or X1 or are they not glamorous enough for them...

    I accept that they'll arrive eventually but it's hardly encouraging people to move away from ICE cars.
     

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