When will Epson do a native 4K home projector?

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Ok with the imminent release to the market of the LS11000/12000 I think many of us expected prior to the spec was known thought finally Epson have a native 4K projector but alas it wasn’t to be so my question is when will we finally see a native 4K home projector from Epson, especially when running prototypes were seen by dealers several years ago.

Is it that the technology they are using is currently too expensive for the domestic market or as some have suggested the panels are too big to be used in the home environment or is it possible that Epson don’t think the public would buy a high end machine under the Epson brand name anymore so and happy to capitalise on the fact both Sony and JVC have left this section where REAL profits are to be made because there is far more customers to sell to.
 

alebonau

Distinguished Member
If you read their marketing info you would be easily fooled to think their new laser range is 4K. The 1080p basis is now totally omitted or buried well

Perhaps this is it …all we will get …

If something else is to come maybe it’s not ready or timing is not right …
 

jakimp

Distinguished Member
given the time they took to replace the 9300 we must be at least 4-5 years away from a new ground up range from epson

i think they were quite shrewd tbh in just moving up to fill the space JVC have left behind as selling an epson PJ for £7k would have put there range in upper Sony bulb PJ pricing and probably at JVC NP5 price point when/if it comes out and that might have been a step too far
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Ok with the imminent release to the market of the LS11000/12000 I think many of us expected prior to the spec was known thought finally Epson have a native 4K projector but alas it wasn’t to be so my question is when will we finally see a native 4K home projector from Epson, especially when running prototypes were seen by dealers several years ago.

Is it that the technology they are using is currently too expensive for the domestic market or as some have suggested the panels are too big to be used in the home environment or is it possible that Epson don’t think the public would buy a high end machine under the Epson brand name anymore so and happy to capitalise on the fact both Sony and JVC have left this section where REAL profits are to be made because there is far more customers to sell to.
Do you have any links to the 4K prototypes models you mentioned?

I guess the 6 μm pixel-pitch they have in the native 4K LCD panels used in the Epson Pro L12000QNL model is the distance they need to reduce to something between 3-4 μm (with some usable aperture left) before the native 4K LCD panels will be available for home theater use.

It seems to be very hard to make the pixel-pitch any smaller when the panels are used transmissive.

PixelPitch.png


In comparison, the current JVC 4K D-ILA matrix: 0.69" panel pixel pitch is 3.8 μm (0.0038 mm) and pixel gap is 0.18μm (0.00018 mm)
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^If I had the any additional info on the prototype do you think I wouldn't have already shared it. I don't know if it was LCD or LCoQ.

I imagine the size of the pixel pitch on the Pro L12000QNL is due to it's commercial usage.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
^If I had the any additional info on the prototype do you think I wouldn't have already shared it. I don't know if it was LCD or LCoQ.
Yes, I guess so. Epson also makes it a little confusing all the time they call native 1080p panels projector for 4K when they only use pixel shift.

I imagine the size of the pixel pitch on the Pro L12000QNL is due to it's commercial usage.
Yes but will also guess the 6 μm pixel-pitch is currently Epson's limit where the transmissive aperture size takes a nose dive due to pixel pitch vs pixel gap included space for the not transparent TFT transistor.
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Yes but will also guess the 6 μm pixel-pitch is currently Epson's limit where the transmissive aperture size takes a nose dive due to pixel pitch vs pixel gap included space for the transistor.
I think we are only guessing this is their limit based on these are the only 4K panels Epson have currently in use, but I repeat I reckon the size is down to demand for lumen requirement, a domestic projector doesn’t need to throw an image on to a 10-15m width screen.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
If Epson had any additional info on a 3-4 μm pixel pitch prototype 4K LCD panel projector do you think they wouldn't have already shared it?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
If Epson had any additional info on a 3-4 μm pixel pitch prototype 4K LCD panel projector do you think they wouldn't have already shared it?
I don’t know if they would or wouldn’t, I do know the person that told me about the prototypes was told that at the time they were going with LCD e-shift because it gave the most light output which benefitted HDR.

I imagine laser technology has moved on since back then to the point that possibly they now could achieve the light required with 4K panels.
 
One thing is sure, they are multiple generations behind SONY and JVC, and as it looks it is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up.
I imagine that a 4K panel with very low pixel fill will not be very eye-friendly, at HT viewing distances.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
One thing is sure, they are multiple generations behind SONY and JVC, and as it looks it is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up.
Being behind and yet selling way more product, maybe they are the wise ones. One thing for sure they don't lack the money or resources to compete, if anything they could easily do it but the question I am asking is why haven't they, is it purely the fact they are happy to sell more than everyone else and make more profit in this middle ground that the niche market that they would need to enter if they brought out a native 4K machine.
I imagine that a 4K panel with very low pixel fill will not be very eye-friendly, at HT viewing distances.
I can't believe that they intend to use LCD for a domestic Native 4K projector, well not in it's current state unless they have done something as yet unseen. I would think if they being one out it will either be LCoS/LCoQ or some form of new tech.
 
Being behind and yet selling way more product, maybe they are the wise ones. One thing for sure they don't lack the money or resources to compete, if anything they could easily do it but the question I am asking is why haven't they, is it purely the fact they are happy to sell more than everyone else and make more profit in this middle ground that the niche market that they would need to enter if they brought out a native 4K machine.

I can't believe that they intend to use LCD for a domestic Native 4K projector, well not in it's current state unless they have done something as yet unseen. I would think if they being one out it will either be LCoS/LCoQ or some form of new tech.
Maybe a place to start would be to pick up the high-end 1080P market, with a 20000:1 or higher native panel contrast and 95% pixel fill, to jump in where JVC left the X series, there for sure is a market for that today. The problem is likely that it will take quite a few generations to refine a design like that.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
From the Epson 2021 financial report.

‘Visual Communications Segment
Visual communications revenue decreased despite wins in the education market as schools reopened and despite increased demand in the home segment. The decrease was due to a combination of factors, including restrictions placed on economic activity around the world to slow the spread of COVID-19, the postponement or cancellation of events, the continued shrinkage of the projector market due to the continued incursion of flat panel displays, and product supply shortages due to shipping delays.
Epson was rigorously selective about spending projects and sharply cut costs. Nevertheless, visual communications segment profit decreased due to lower revenue.
As a result of the foregoing factors, revenue in the visual communications segment was ¥141.4 billion, down 22.8% year on year. Segment profit was ¥1.3 billion, down 90.1% year on year.’

Joe
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
From the Epson 2021 financial report.

‘Visual Communications Segment
Visual communications revenue decreased despite wins in the education market as schools reopened and despite increased demand in the home segment. The decrease was due to a combination of factors, including restrictions placed on economic activity around the world to slow the spread of COVID-19, the postponement or cancellation of events, the continued shrinkage of the projector market due to the continued incursion of flat panel displays, and product supply shortages due to shipping delays.
Epson was rigorously selective about spending projects and sharply cut costs. Nevertheless, visual communications segment profit decreased due to lower revenue.
As a result of the foregoing factors, revenue in the visual communications segment was ¥141.4 billion, down 22.8% year on year. Segment profit was ¥1.3 billion, down 90.1% year on year.’

Joe

I wonder was this more down to the fact they probably are the biggest player in the commercial cinema market and Covid killed it stone dead like it did to travel. The domestic market is probably the one end that actually grew due to no one being able or scared to go to their local cinema.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Maybe a place to start would be to pick up the high-end 1080P market, with a 20000:1 or higher native panel contrast and 95% pixel fill, to jump in where JVC left the X series, there for sure is a market for that today. The problem is likely that it will take quite a few generations to refine a design like that.
I assume these new LS models are trying to fill that void though clearly they can't achieve the 20K:1 NC.

Can you imagine how well a £4K X series with DTM would sell if JVC had decided to release it, especially with it's superior NC over even the 4K machines.
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
Ironically the old LS would have been a good place to start as the pixel fill was better as well ! with 25k:1 NC

 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Ironically the old LS would have been a good place to start as the pixel fill was better as well ! with 25k:1 NC

Totally, all that model needed was a possible improved e-shift function, new more power laser and improved HDR handling and they could have sold that all day long at £4-5K.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Totally, all that model needed was a possible improved e-shift function, new more power laser and improved HDR handling and they could have sold that all day long at £4-5K.
In my opinion, Epson did many things right with these LS10x00 models
One of them was to use higher on/off contrast reflecting panels instead of transmissive ones.
Going non-transmissive might also have solved the 4K imager and pixel pitch/gap and aperture boundary they face today, where they choose the old full HD LCD imagers and 2 axis pixel shift and call that 4K instead.

Here in Norway, these older LS models were quite expensive (something equivalent to £7-8K) (close to the X7x00 JVC series), so with the price jumps of today with the updates you describe I guess they had been closer to the JVC NZ7 than the £4-5K price even before they had got to a native 4K LCoQ
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
In my opinion, Epson did many things right with these LS10x00 models
One of them was to use higher on/off contrast reflecting panels instead of transmissive ones.
Going non-transmissive might also have solved the 4K imager and pixel pitch/gap and aperture boundary they face today, where they choose the old full HD LCD imagers and 2 axis pixel shift and call that 4K instead.

Here in Norway, these older LS models were quite expensive (something equivalent to £7-8K) (close to the X7x00 JVC series), so with the price jumps of today with the updates you describe I guess they had been closer to the JVC NZ7 than the £4-5K price even before they had got to a native 4K LCoQ
I reckon because of their sheer size and economic scale they should be able to undercut both JVC and Sony if they so desired but I still think at best a native 4K LCoQ Laser would come in at £8K. Though what they could have done was basically deliver us the LS10500 with it's existing panels, a more power laser, better HDR capabilities and the 4 way shifter and sold that for a lot less and many more people would have been happy.

This wouldn't have required the R&D to develop a new native 4K panel as they would have been using their existing one and instead throw that research into HDR and the e-shift. I think to ask £4.4K and not delivery superior contrast over the 9400 doesn't shout to me worthy of upgrading to having the 9400 already, different to a new customer especially the younger ones who are probably more into gaming than movies but for me I wanted a TRUE LS10500 replacement something that takes the fight to Sony and JVC and keeps their pricing honest and not inflated.

Basically we need a true back to basics home cinema projector that deals with movies with decent blacks, addressable 8.3M pixels from a 4way shifter and handles HDR properly and has the kind of lumens to still deliver a convincing HDR image even at 150", for that last thing I reckon laser is the best option and no doubt about it Epson are probably one of if not the leader in this field.


EPSON if you are reading this please make it happen. 🙏
 
I reckon because of their sheer size and economic scale they should be able to undercut both JVC and Sony if they so desired but I still think at best a native 4K LCoQ Laser would come in at £8K. Though what they could have done was basically deliver us the LS10500 with it's existing panels, a more power laser, better HDR capabilities and the 4 way shifter and sold that for a lot less and many more people would have been happy.

This wouldn't have required the R&D to develop a new native 4K panel as they would have been using their existing one and instead throw that research into HDR and the e-shift. I think to ask £4.4K and not delivery superior contrast over the 9400 doesn't shout to me worthy of upgrading to having the 9400 already, different to a new customer especially the younger ones who are probably more into gaming than movies but for me I wanted a TRUE LS10500 replacement something that takes the fight to Sony and JVC and keeps their pricing honest and not inflated.

Basically we need a true back to basics home cinema projector that deals with movies with decent blacks, addressable 8.3M pixels from a 4way shifter and handles HDR properly and has the kind of lumens to still deliver a convincing HDR image even at 150", for that last thing I reckon laser is the best option and no doubt about it Epson are probably one of if not the leader in this field.


EPSON if you are reading this please make it happen. 🙏
Apparently, they are not capable, despite your wishful thinking.
 
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ask4me2

Active Member
I reckon because of their sheer size and economic scale they should be able to undercut both JVC and Sony if they so desired but I still think at best a native 4K LCoQ Laser would come in at £8K. Though what they could have done was basically deliver us the LS10500 with it's existing panels, a more power laser, better HDR capabilities and the 4 way shifter and sold that for a lot less and many more people would have been happy.

This wouldn't have required the R&D to develop a new native 4K panel as they would have been using their existing one and instead throw that research into HDR and the e-shift. I think to ask £4.4K and not delivery superior contrast over the 9400 doesn't shout to me worthy of upgrading to having the 9400 already, different to a new customer especially the younger ones who are probably more into gaming than movies but for me I wanted a TRUE LS10500 replacement something that takes the fight to Sony and JVC and keeps their pricing honest and not inflated.

Basically we need a true back to basics home cinema projector that deals with movies with decent blacks, addressable 8.3M pixels from a 4way shifter and handles HDR properly and has the kind of lumens to still deliver a convincing HDR image even at 150", for that last thing I reckon laser is the best option and no doubt about it Epson are probably one of if not the leader in this field.


EPSON if you are reading this please make it happen. 🙏
So the answer to the question "when-will-Epson-do-a-native-4k-home-projector" is never?

They should just use what they have or had with the LCoQ and 4way shift their way out of the native 4K projector world?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
So the answer to the question "when-will-Epson-do-a-native-4k-home-projector" is never?

They should just use what they have or had with the LCoQ and 4way shift their way out of the native 4K projector world?
Not I was replying to your previous comment of why not make a 1080P with 25K:1 Contrast to fill the void left by the X series and sell it for around £4K.

I still want Epson to deliver a native 4K at some point, though doubt it will be any time soon so we have another competitor in the Native 4K market, that way pricing remains competitive.
 

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