What's the black level of a VT50?

GeraarGietaar

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Hi,

I'm thinking about buying a new TV.
My Panny is 5 years old and, although the picture is still superb, the blacks look somewhat washed out and not as deep as they should be.
Has anyone measurd the black levels of a TX65VT50 or perhaps a 50" (I don't think they'll differ all that much) with a spyder 3?
It's just to have some kind of point of comparison with what I've measured on mine.
 
A spyder 3 wont measure that low it will say its 0, off top of my head its 0.009 black screen in thx cinema and 0.012 ansi.
 
my spyder 4 meter only reads down to about 0.04cdm so wont even read my plasma.
 
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Hi,

I'm thinking about buying a new TV.
My Panny is 5 years old and, although the picture is still superb, the blacks look somewhat washed out and not as deep as they should be.
Has anyone measurd the black levels of a TX65VT50 or perhaps a 50" (I don't think they'll differ all that much) with a spyder 3?
It's just to have some kind of point of comparison with what I've measured on mine.

It's about 0.09 - 0.018 cd/m^2 depending on the mode and what is
displayed adjacent to the measured black area. Over the first few
hundred hours the black level drops. Some measurements have shown
0.0055 cd/m^2 on sets that are well run-in.

These are dark room measurements. For the black level in a moderately
well lit environment, you have to add to the figures above the amount of
reflected ambient light. That will raise the black level so that, for example,
in a brightly lit shop environment the blacks will be rather greyish. Indeed,
in such a scenario, Panasonic's LCD displays have darker blacks than their
plasma offerings. I know this because I've seen them side by side.
 
The review has a black level reading, bare in mind at such levels its hard to be 100% on any set and sets will vary. As above it also depends on environment and meter used.
 
I measured 0.021 cd/m² with the spyder 3.
So the VT50 wouldn't be all that better?
measured what with the spyder, You must have a very good metter the lowest my spyder 4 pro meter will ony read as low as 0.04 and that been profiled with a klien k10.
 
I think my new i1 Display 3 pro referenced would only go down to 0.04 as well.
p.s. i've been using my meter in contact mode, but if i was to use it on a tripod with my VT, what would be the correct distance from my meter to the screen, and what angle would you use, slightly pointing up, or from the side.
Thanks.
 
Indeed,
in such a scenario, Panasonic's LCD displays have darker blacks than their
plasma offerings. I know this because I've seen them side by side.

Are you sure you havn't seen a Panasonic LCD with it's lights turned off whilst displaying total black? LCD does this. it doesn't actually display black.
 
I think my new i1 Display 3 pro referenced would only go down to 0.04 as well.
p.s. i've been using my meter in contact mode, but if i was to use it on a tripod with my VT, what would be the correct distance from my meter to the screen, and what angle would you use, slightly pointing up, or from the side.
Thanks.
no your meter should read down to 0.003cdm2
 
maybe it was 0.004cdm2 i got it down to, will give it another go this weekend, but i need to know about the distance and angle of the tripod, don't want to use contact mode with the 3D glasses, any ideas scot?
 
Indeed,
in such a scenario, Panasonic's LCD displays have darker blacks than their
plasma offerings. I know this because I've seen them side by side.
Strangely enough, I watchad a VT50 amongst two Sammy LCD's and a LG LCD and the LCD's not only looked a lot sharper, ad brighter but the Panny's colors looked washed out, like there was a hue in front of the screen.
 
Are you sure you havn't seen a Panasonic LCD
with it's lights turned off whilst displaying total black?

Absolutely. They had some ghastly music channel on and the darker areas
within normal content were noticeably greyish on the VT50 but black on the
LCD displays next to it.

That is no surprise. It's well known that plasma displays are not as good at
rejecting ambient light as high quality LCD displays. When the ambient light
is above a certain level, such LCD displays will exhibit darker blacks than
their plasma counterparts. In addition, the plasma displays will suffer a
loss of contrast and colour saturation, particularly toward the lower end of
the luminance range.

That's not to say I prefer LCD displays. If you want the best possible image
available in a domestic TV, then a plasma display is the best choice. But
you will only get that image quality if the other light in your room is not
excessive. That's no problem for me - I do not live in a shop :--)
 
Absolutely. They had some ghastly music channel on and the darker areas
within normal content were noticeably greyish on the VT50 but black on the
LCD displays next to it.

That is no surprise. It's well known that plasma displays are not as good at
rejecting ambient light as high quality LCD displays. When the ambient light
is above a certain level, such LCD displays will exhibit darker blacks than
their plasma counterparts. In addition, the plasma displays will suffer a
loss of contrast and colour saturation, particularly toward the lower end of
the luminance range.

That's not to say I prefer LCD displays. If you want the best possible image
available in a domestic TV, then a plasma display is the best choice. But
you will only get that image quality if the other light in your room is not
excessive. That's no problem for me - I do not live in a shop :--)

Agree LCD is better in shop lighting, partly due to the extra brightness, this can make darker areas seem darker and effect contrast. Settings in store also play a part.
Not sure about the above sets but some have very deep black levels, however they have difficulty with shadow detail and uniformity unlike plasma.
LCDs are sharper with static images but not with motion, moving images on an LCD are lower resolution, the extra brightness of LCD can give the appearance of a sharper image but its not(in motion).

Always best to demo in a light controlled demo room or shop floor with lower light. That is of course unless your room is very bright.
 
Perhaps this is overdoing it, but you could express the minimum black level
M with a formula like this:

M = E + R

In that E is the minimum emitted light and R the reflected ambient light. You
could then define R as A/k, where A is the ambient light level (let's assume
omnidirectional even distribution) and k is a "filtering constant". That is,
the higher the value of k, the less ambient light is reflected (i.e., more is
filtered). So we have:

M = E + A/k

A plasma display will have lower values for both E and k than an LCD
display. So, when A is zero (dark room) we get:

M = E

and the plasma's blacks are darker. But as A increases the second term A/k
also increases relative to E and becomes the dominant term, because E is fixed.
Since k for plasma displays is relatively small, A/k for plasma displays
increases more rapidly than it would do for LCD displays.

Contrast is also affected. Suppose T is the maximum amount of light emitted
by a display, then we can define contrast as:

(T + A/k)/(E + A/k)

For A = 0 (again, dark room), that reduces to T/E. But for positive non-zero
A, the value of the above expression is always lower than T/E.

For example, suppose your display emitted a minimum of 1 unit of light and a
maximum of 10. Then the contrast ratio would be 10:1, or you could just say
it has a contrast of 10. But then suppose that 1 unit of ambient light is
reflected in addition to the light emitted. Then the contrast is (10+1) / (1+1).
So the contrast is 11/2 = 0.55. In other words, by reflecting some ambient light,
the contrast has been almost halved.

Similar arguments can be made for saturation. Saturated colours are,
essentially, produced by a mix of two colours from red, green or blue with
the remaining colour being held low. If the remaining colour cannot be held
low because it is augmented by reflected ambient light, then saturation is
lost.

That is why, in extreme shop environments, plasma displays may look washed
out. The colours are less vibrant because saturation is lost. The contrast
is reduced, leading to a flatter image. And you don't have those inky deep
shadows.

But again, in the correct environment a plasma display can produce
exceptionally vivid, vibrant images of a stunning naturalness. I do want to
emphasize that, because shop viewing can be completely misleading. If anyone
is reading this and has only seen a plasma display in a brightly lit shop, I
would urge seeking out a proper demo.

I mistakenly used the word "perhaps" at the start of this overlong post :--)
 
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Perhaps this is overdoing it, but you could express the minimum black level
M with a formula like this:

M = E + R

In that E is the emitted light and R the reflected ambient light. You could
then define R as A/k, where A is the ambient light level (let's assume
omnidirectional even distribution) and k is a "filtering constant". That is,
the higher the value of k, the less ambient light is reflected (i.e., more is
filtered). So we have:

M = E + A/k

A plasma display will have lower values for both E and k than an LCD
display. So, when A is zero (dark room) we get:

M = E

and the plasma's blacks are darker. But as A increases the second term A/k
also increases relative to E and becomes the dominant term, because E is fixed.
Since k for plasma displays is relatively small, A/k for plasma displays
increases more rapidly than it would do for LCD displays.

Contrast is also affected. Suppose T is the maximum amount of light emitted
by a display, then we can define contrast as:

(T + A/k)/(E + A/k)

For A = 0 (again, dark room), that reduces to T/E. But for positive non-zero
A, the value of the above expression is always lower than T/E.

For example, suppose your display emitted a minimum of 1 unit of light and a
maximum of 10. Then the contrast ratio would be 10:1, or you could just say
it has a contrast of 10. But then suppose that 1 unit of ambient light is
reflected in addition to the light emitted. Then the contrast ratio is
(10+1) / (1+1). So the contrast, as a number, is 11/2 = 0.55. In other words,
by reflecting some ambient light, the contrast has been almost halved.

Similar arguments can be made for saturation. Saturated colours are,
essentially, produced by a mix of two colours from red, green or blue with
the remaining colour being held low. If the remaining colour cannot be held
low because it is augmented by reflected ambient light, then saturation is
lost.

That is why, in extreme shop environments, plasma displays may look washed
out. The colours are less vibrant because saturation is lost. The contrast
is reduced, leading to a flatter image. And you don't have those inky deep
shadows.

But again, in the correct environment a plasma display can produce
exceptionally vivid, vibrant images of a stunning naturalness. I do want to
emphasize that, because shop viewing can be completely misleading. If anyone
is reading this and has only seen a plasma display in a brightly lit shop, I
would urge seeking out a proper demo.

In laymen:devil:

In a bright environment light enters the screen and is bounced about within. The amount of light depends on how good the screens filter is. With plasma this can make the picture seem dull as the light output of the set is likely too low to counter act the effect.
With and LCD the issue may still occur to a lesser degree if the set has a glass panel, however due to the light output of LCD the picture is less washed out and maintains a higher contrast.

So....

If your room is very bright you may require an LCD.

If your room is well lit but not overly bright(conservatory or contemporary house) a plasma will be fine as long as it has a good filter and light isn't falling directly on the screen.

If no direct light will hit the screen and the room is only moderately lit a plasma without a decent filter may be fine.

No set should be viewed in a completely dark room as this will give you eye strain. In a dark room plasma is the clear winner as LCD has real problems producing a decent uniform black level. LED back lit sets have improved this as areas can be switched off, however as this isn't per pixel like plasma there are issues such as light bleed.

Also what looks good in a bright store may look garish at home, also an overly bright screen can give eye strain.
Setup correctly both plasma and LCD can give a wonderful image(varies depending on make and model). Plasma can achieve a good light output suitable for most environments, LCD can be adjusted to also suit most environments. However there are strengths and weaknesses of both tech. This is why you ideally need a demo room to clearly see what technology suits your needs best, both for your environment and uses.
 
I still prefer Plasma.
I watch movies preferably in the evening with no lights.
I'm just not sure I should get a new one now.
That's why I wanted to compare to my current Plasma, a Panny TH-50PZ70E.
 
Nothing better than watching a movie in very dim lighting on a plasma! Just like being in the cinema, only more cosy. On my previous LED set I actually turned lights ON when watching a movie to hide the flashlighting and improve perceived black levels!

Having said that LEDs are definitely better during the day (unless auto-dimming is enabled, then dark scenes are almost impossible to see), but plasma offer a much better experience if you like watching TV in a dimmer evening setting (like me :))
 
I still prefer Plasma.
I watch movies preferably in the evening with no lights.
I'm just not sure I should get a new one now.
That's why I wanted to compare to my current Plasma, a Panny TH-50PZ70E.

Well as I've said in another thread, my brother went from PZ81 to ST50 and the difference is clear. There's even an improvement over last years sets IMO though obviously not as big. Id say my D6900 is better than my brothers PZ.
 

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