What's next for projectors? Epson, Sony & JVC's next moves

[kenshingintoki]

What do you guys think are the next moves for the big 3; Epson, Sony and JVC? I think the projector landscape is going to get pretty exciting. LG and Samsung are now getting involved. LG's first showing of a projector is no slouch feature wise outside of the exclusion of 3D which for many would be a deal breaker. Samsung and LG otherwise are bringing all the bells and whistles re: lumen output and usability.

I really hope this year and next year there is a focus on lumen output for HDR performance and maybe some HDMI 2.1 future proofing (although I'm not completely sold this will be possible by release date).

My personal want list are:

JVC: higher lumen output, approaching 2000-2200 lumens, for better HDR performance, HDMI 2.1 if they want to do that.. and otherwise business as usual; I doubt they'll make their throw distance etc. more versatile.
Epson: DTM. again a lumen boost to match the LG would be nice, an improvement on contrast and blacks (!!!) please!; again I doubt this.
Sony: I have no hopes for them other than rehashing old products

My fear for JVC are they don't improve lumen count. I know they did it with the X5000 series so I'd love for them to do it again, to be able to support bigger screen sizes.

My fear for Epson is they will re-has and release the 9400 just with DTM. As a previous owner of the 9400, the 9300 and 9400 are ridiculously close that I struggle to call it a proper upgrade outside of 18gbps and a HDR slider. I'd like to see actual improvement to technology but not holding my breath.

 

[Topmetom 2]

Trouble for projectors is that they really are only for dedicated rooms now due to their size. If you want it in a living room its hard to accommodate,unless, you live alone..or have a massive room. For a normal space the UST are the future for pj in living rooms..

 

[kenshingintoki]

Trouble for projectors is that they really are only for dedicated rooms now due to their size. If you want it in a living room its hard to accommodate,unless, you live alone..or have a massive room. For a normal space the UST are the future for pj in living rooms..

Totally agreed. Throw distance alone (forget the cabling et al) means JVC, Epson and Sony PJs will forever be enthusiast level.

 

[flyinmunky1]

Epson come out with a replacement for the LS-10500

Native 4k, Laser , DTM, Low latency, under £5k

 

[kenshingintoki]

Epson come out with a replacement for the LS-10500

Native 4k, Laser , DTM, Low latency, under £5k

Given the time gap between the 9400 and the 9500 and the 9300 to 9400 being pretty god damn stale, I wonder if Epson will finally just unleash laser upon us with the 9500 and continue production run of the 9400 + DTM as a budget model?

From what I've gathered, Epson are struggling via a bulb to match the lumen output of the 9300/9400 if they go native 4K so I assume (probably wrongly) if they are to persist with bulbs, the are limited to e-shift.



The only issue I have with a £5k LS11000 is... well.. its going to be mighty close to JVC offerings and as far as I know, the JVCs destroy the Epson lasers in contrast too.. which swings the temptation back to JVC favour.

 

[Luminated67]

Given the time gap between the 9400 and the 9500 and the 9300 to 9400 being pretty god damn stale, I wonder if Epson will finally just unleash laser upon us with the 9500 and continue production run of the 9400 + DTM as a budget model?

From what I've gathered, Epson are struggling via a bulb to match the lumen output of the 9300/9400 if they go native 4K so I assume (probably wrongly) if they are to persist with bulbs, the are limited to e-shift.



The only issue I have with a £5k LS11000 is... well.. its going to be mighty close to JVC offerings and as far as I know, the JVCs destroy the Epson lasers in contrast too.. which swings the temptation back to JVC favour.

It depends on whether you valued laser over bulb, some say that’s what makes the dear Sony, Z1 and LS series so special despite their inferior contrast to the equivalent JVC bulb series.

I think one needs to see both side by side to see if they think it too.

 

[rjrodders]

It depends on whether you valued laser over bulb, some say that’s what makes the dear Sony, Z1 and LS series so special despite their inferior contrast to the equivalent JVC bulb series.

I think one needs to see both side by side to see if they think it too.

Nicely surmised, Laser projectors to me is like going from a manual to automatic transmission, the sheer ease of usability.... almost immediate on/off TV like operation, no bulb use hours anxiety for heavy viewing users, no recalibration for new bulb replacements.
That's not to say I think bulb based projectors are inferior far from it, but for my needs I would never go back to a bulb based projector as the convenience of laser experience is night and day for me.

The real issue as discussed here is the lack of development to produce affordable laser based equivalents of the the top tier bulb projectors, now I wonder why that might be... as the after market sales of bulbs, market loss would be significant from said manufactures. just my thoughts on the subject !!!

 

[IWC Dopplel]

Given the time gap between the 9400 and the 9500 and the 9300 to 9400 being pretty god damn stale, I wonder if Epson will finally just unleash laser upon us with the 9500 and continue production run of the 9400 + DTM as a budget model?

From what I've gathered, Epson are struggling via a bulb to match the lumen output of the 9300/9400 if they go native 4K so I assume (probably wrongly) if they are to persist with bulbs, the are limited to e-shift.



The only issue I have with a £5k LS11000 is... well.. its going to be mighty close to JVC offerings and as far as I know, the JVCs destroy the Epson lasers in contrast too.. which swings the temptation back to JVC favour.

I’d pay £10k for an 11000 4K version, it only needs a small contrast increase, black level detail is excellent and it’s very rare indeed I crave more contrast with the 10500

 

[alebonau]

Trouble for projectors is that they really are only for dedicated rooms now due to their size. If you want it in a living room its hard to accommodate,unless, you live alone..or have a massive room. For a normal space the UST are the future for pj in living rooms..

hi TM i have had 2 epson and 3 jvc in my non dedicated living room. no regrets ever going this way. its a room surround by windows but full block out heavy curtains with pelmets and also full 100% block out blinds mean can use it day or night cant see hand in front of me

i have visited folk with dedicated rooms and non dedicated rooms with projectors ... and disagree they are only for dedicated rooms....

it only took me some work bot really help and clever thinking from friends to make possible its very much possible ... I personally think if i can pull it off anyone can .... if there is a will there is a way

 

[Superhans]

What do you guys think are the next moves for the big 3; Epson, Sony and JVC? I think the projector landscape is going to get pretty exciting. LG and Samsung are now getting involved. LG's first showing of a projector is no slouch feature wise outside of the exclusion of 3D which for many would be a deal breaker. Samsung and LG otherwise are bringing all the bells and whistles re: lumen output and usability.

I really hope this year and next year there is a focus on lumen output for HDR performance and maybe some HDMI 2.1 future proofing (although I'm not completely sold this will be possible by release date).

My personal want list are:

JVC: higher lumen output, approaching 2000-2200 lumens, for better HDR performance, HDMI 2.1 if they want to do that.. and otherwise business as usual; I doubt they'll make their throw distance etc. more versatile.
Epson: DTM. again a lumen boost to match the LG would be nice, an improvement on contrast and blacks (!!!) please!; again I doubt this.
Sony: I have no hopes for them other than rehashing old products

My fear for JVC are they don't improve lumen count. I know they did it with the X5000 series so I'd love for them to do it again, to be able to support bigger screen sizes.

My fear for Epson is they will re-has and release the 9400 just with DTM. As a previous owner of the 9400, the 9300 and 9400 are ridiculously close that I struggle to call it a proper upgrade outside of 18gbps and a HDR slider. I'd like to see actual improvement to technology but not holding my breath.

I love the optimism and enthusiasm in your post. I’m a relative newcomer to the scene but I’ve been frustrated by the snails pace development since I bought my first projector in 2016.

In my opinion prioritising HDR over SDR 4K has been a disaster for projectors. Unless your into ultra high end gear you are ultimately looking to process an image designed for OLED displays into a compromise SDR equivalent. It’s frankly an obstacle to overcome and the complexity and/or expense of so doing for your average end user has made the market ever more niche. I’m honestly not sure that chucking a couple hundred extra lumens is going to overcome. That said I’m using an AT screen and my next projector WILL be 2000 - 2200.

I would love for more laser options in conjunction with a quiet cooling solution.

I’d prioritise more stable 2.0 hdmi boards over 2.1.

In all cases I think high quality consistent lens yields is key.

Personally I think the industry will continue to dither with tick releases until micro LED kills off everything but the high end market in a decade. I’ll hopefully upgrade this or next year but it’ll probably be my last.

 

[Topmetom 2]

Your room is indeed excellent, however here in the uk our rooms are not very big, most anyway. I have a themescene hd86 in my room which works but a ls10000 was absolutely massive in the room and had to go! As I was told! @alebonau

a different take on that is we watched a film last night via pj, when finished and the screen went up the words “oh, isnt the 55 tiny in comparison“ was heard from swmbo! Nothing beats the big screen experience for sure!

 

[alebonau]

It depends on whether you valued laser over bulb, some say that’s what makes the dear Sony, Z1 and LS series so special despite their inferior contrast to the equivalent JVC bulb series.

I think one needs to see both side by side to see if they think it too.

ive never had to change a lamp on any one projector yet and tend to keep mine 3 to 5 years where usually ive seen tech advantage enough to upgrade... truthfully its a second display for me though. the projector only for larger screen experience and old kuro for every day TV...still a gazillion movies go through mine am watching maybe 2-3 movies at best a week...some weeks will go by with nothing watched with travel and life busy ness other times we might binge watch ... however even with covid elevated viewing have only managed just over 500 hours in 2.5 years ... so no lamp life is not a consequence and even with a spare bulb i got gratis with the projector even if i keep it 10 years(which is possible with this one ! ) ... i cant see myself having to buy a bulb !

laser has some ways to go in colour gamut coverage for instance ...you need 2 lasers and at best we need RGB laser... massive cost...

also in lumen stakes we are not seeing massive hike up with laser... if you want massive hike up you need projectors like jvc Z1 or sony GT380... and these are not only huge but cost a kings ransom

additionally there is noise ... higher lumen laser projectors are not quiet and they have a kind of oscillating noise that gets annoying on higher power !

laser has some ways over all to go i think...

Your room is indeed excellent, however here in the uk our rooms are not very big, most anyway. I have a themescene hd86 in my room which works but a ls10000 was absolutely massive in the room and had to go! As I was told! @alebonau

understand with rooms too small, but mine is not that big TM its 5.5 x 6m and its multi use opening up to open plan house ! id never put a LS10000 in my room agree its flipping massive and a good reason it went way of the dodo ! there is no need to be putting things like this in... infact no dedicated room or non dedicated room have i visited has ever had them in. i know one fellow with a z1 beastie...the years of large CRT monsters lurking in the back of the room whether dedicated or non dedicated are thankfully long gone

a different take on that is we watched a film last night via pj, when finished and the screen went up the words “oh, isnt the 55 tiny in comparison“ was heard from swmbo! Nothing beats the big screen experience for sure!

that is for sure ... even though i run a relatively small screen it still makes the telly look small ! and definitely its well worth the experience on larger scale with the projector... also its a very different look... reflected off the screen ...vs beaming off with light off the screen there is something different about it

 

[ask4me2]

I wish JVC or any of the other brands would build a new Nx9 size and price level projector with contrast chips and an external scalable for screen size RGB laser module with black level and contrast similar to a Christi Eclipse. 20.000.000:1 full Rec 2020

 

[alebonau]

I wish JVC or any of the other brands would build a new Nx9 size and price level projector with contrast chips and an external scalable for screen size RGB laser module with black level and contrast similar to a Christi Eclipse. 20.000.000:1 full Rec 2020

now you just need a lamp to rub

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I’d pay £10k for an 11000 4K version, it only needs a small contrast increase, black level detail is excellent and it’s very rare indeed I crave more contrast with the 10500

I don’t think I’d pay that much myself! I’d be happy with an HDMI 2.0 18gbps board upgrade and auto-switching HDR software update.

If you are paying that much you may as well just get the Sony 790 laser model.

 

[ask4me2]

now you just need a lamp to rub

yes, or some phallus-looking dream stone crystal from WW1984 universe.
I think some of the solutions and specifications from the Christi Eclipse projector are what the projector manufacturers shod have as a goal if they are to compete side by side with the bigger and bigger direct view screens with Oled, Qled or RGB micro led screens.

 

[IWC Dopplel]

now you just need a lamp to rub

If that technology migrates down that would provide another Sim2 DLP, JVC HD1 moment for sure

 

[GrazzaB]

I know this is the kind of thing I’ve said over the years about all kinds of tech but I honestly can’t think of what they could realistically improve with the JVC N series aside from a giant jump in lumen output, which I doubt is likely.

My Epson LS10000 was superb and was very close contrast wise to my JVC N5. Now the JVCs have superb tone mapping for HDR - and for me wider colour is far more impressive / important than some of the ludicrously OTT brightness I see with HDR content on my TV - plus great brightness with HDR very impressive at 110” even in low lamp mode, 4K / 60fps in HDR, an absolutely superb CMD system (set to low obviously, high is awful) there’s nothing it’s lacking at all in my view. I don’t see any need to worry about 120fps for gaming as 60/4K HDR is much more of a big deal and a huge jump from 30/4K HDR.

So I agree that incremental changes are more likely than anything else.

But for people who struggle to afford JVC’s prices (and I was absolutely one of them and had to sell a lot of my stuff to afford my N5) I think there is a huge opportunity at the £3000 ish level for Epson to do something brilliant. I think people would be very happy with DTM from Epson at 4K 60fps for that money in an improved TW9400. Wishing for laser at that price is probably unrealistic but if they could manage the laser model at the 5,000 mark they could have a game changer on their hands. But if I could have had an Epson TW9500, say, as a bulb-based unit for £3000-3500 that did everything the 9400 does with dynamic tone mapping I would have got that instead of the N5, which I absolutely love.

 

[kenshingintoki]

I know this is the kind of thing I’ve said over the years about all kinds of tech but I honestly can’t think of what they could realistically improve with the JVC N series aside from a giant jump in lumen output, which I doubt is likely.

My Epson LS10000 was superb and was very close contrast wise to my JVC N5. Now the JVCs have superb tone mapping for HDR - and for me wider colour is far more impressive / important than some of the ludicrously OTT brightness I see with HDR content on my TV - plus great brightness with HDR very impressive at 110” even in low lamp mode, 4K / 60fps in HDR, an absolutely superb CMD system (set to low obviously, high is awful) there’s nothing it’s lacking at all in my view. I don’t see any need to worry about 120fps for gaming as 60/4K HDR is much more of a big deal and a huge jump from 30/4K HDR.

So I agree that incremental changes are more likely than anything else.

But for people who struggle to afford JVC’s prices (and I was absolutely one of them and had to sell a lot of my stuff to afford my N5) I think there is a huge opportunity at the £3000 ish level for Epson to do something brilliant. I think people would be very happy with DTM from Epson at 4K 60fps for that money in an improved TW9400. Wishing for laser at that price is probably unrealistic but if they could manage the laser model at the 5,000 mark they could have a game changer on their hands. But if I could have had an Epson TW9500, say, as a bulb-based unit for £3000-3500 that did everything the 9400 does with dynamic tone mapping I would have got that instead of the N5, which I absolutely love.

Was the Epson LS10000 really close to the JVC contrast wise? I thought the LS1000/10500 were similar to the 9300/9400?

 

[Luminated67]

I wish JVC or any of the other brands would build a new Nx9 size and price level projector with contrast chips and an external scalable for screen size RGB laser module with black level and contrast similar to a Christi Eclipse. 20.000.000:1 full Rec 2020

Have you put a date on this dream, I think we will have landed on Mars before this will ever happen.

 

[Luminated67]

Was the Epson LS10000 really close to the JVC contrast wise? I thought the LS1000/10500 were similar to the 9300/9400?

Don’t know how reliable this is but they state almost 25K:1 for the LS10500

Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema LS10500 LCD Projector Review Test Bench

Test Bench Full-On/Full-Off Contrast Ratio: 24,950:1 Measurements were made with SpectraCal CalMAN measurement software, Photo Research PR-650 and Klein K-10A color meters, and an AVFoundry VideoForge pattern generator.

www.soundandvision.com

Cine4home measured to Epson 9300 at roughly 6-7K:1 but on dynamic Iris its anything from 30-45K:1, I’ve heard the 9400 is a little better.

 

[Stridsvognen]

Im going to release the all new Creed LED based JVC projector spring 2022.

CXB3590-0000-000R0HCB30G | Cree 3000K CRI: 80 Hvid COB-LED 72 V 12134 lm | RS Components

dk.rs-online.com

 

[ask4me2]

It may be hard to get D65 out of that 3000K lamp, but I have tried something similar in my old HD1

 

[Stridsvognen]

It may be hard to get D65 out of that 3000K lamp, but I have tried something similar in my old HD1

Question is whats the color temp of the UHP lamp, and how many lumen will it take, and how will it react to the filters in the lampengine.

 

[GrazzaB]

Was the Epson LS10000 really close to the JVC contrast wise? I thought the LS1000/10500 were similar to the 9300/9400?

Yes my LS10000 had superb contrast, the N5 probably goes a little bit deeper but there’s really not much in it at all. The N7 is probably a bit better again. There’s an old review on projectorreviews.com I think, or possibly on a French / German comparison, that shows the LS10000 had deeper black levels and better motion than the 9300.

Having said that, the LS10000 was rated at 1500 lumens and the N5 1700, but the JVC is so much brighter IMO it’s a massive difference. On the LS10000 I’d have to have the lamp on high mode when the filter kicked in for WCG, but on the N5 as there’s no filter I can happily run HDR content on low lamp mode and the colours still look brilliant to me. Certainly not restricted in normal comparison with the Epson.