Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by JaseyJay, Sep 27, 2002.
er the above says it all really.
From what I can gather Logic7 is another 7.1 setup that is exclusive to the lexicon & harman Kardon range, although Harman Kardon's version is cut-down.
There's a pretty good explanation from garmtz here ....
"Well, in fact even Lexicon doesn't have 7.1 as such... Logic-7 can create 7-channels of sound from 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 channels of sound, but they cannot "create" a 7.1 discrete mix, it's all matrixed surround. It's just that "7.1 number of speakers" can be used.
There is a lot of confusement between the "speaker layout figure" and the real amount of channels of sound in the source, which in the case of DTS-ES matrix is 5.1 and with DTS-ES discrete is 6.1. No 7.1-ch discrete sources are yet available.
To be entirely correct, DTS-ES matrix and DTS-ES discrete are 3/2:3.1 formats (3 channel up front, 3 channels in the back, encoded on two channels of information). If you want to include the number of speakers used, it should read 3/2:3:3.1 for a single and 3/2:3:4.1 for a dual back surround setup... This method is great for really seeing what's going on.
It sound pretty impressive, to hear the Lexicon MC-12 make stereo back channels out of a 6.1 soundtrack... Wow... "
Had to cut and paste his post as I wasn't sure how to paste the link.
Hope it helps anyway.
Pretty good for a newbie reply! Very good in fact!
Logic 7 is one of those things which some lexicon owners will swear by, some seem to use it always and ignore all other formats. I cant say so myself, but thats mayb just because i havent heard it!
Am I right in thinking Logic 7 can also be matrix encoded into a stereo mix and the stereo mix is then played via Logic 7 setting on Lexicon processors to get a 7.1?
I seem to remember having this discussion with someone else a while back and the R1 copy of LOTR is actually Logic7 encoded.
Im not sure if im hearing you right, but logic 7 is NOT encoded to any discs to my knowledge. It is a software thing within the lexicon. It takes the input signal and fiddles with it a bit and bobs your uncle, logic 7 output.
As far as i know this is true, but im not a lexicon owner so i cant tell you specifics.
Logic 7 can also be used as an encoding scheme and there are a few DVDs where the stereo track is Logic 7 encoded, what differnce that would make I don't know since I don't have a Lexicon. The 2nd zone outputs on the Lexicon processors can be Logic 7 encoded versions of the multi-channel source playing on the main zone, when decoded using a Logic 7 decoder you can apparently get quite a good recreation of the discrete main zone off the stereo 2nd zone.
thought so... look for the little L7 logo on the back of the LOTR R1 dvd cover.
Ok sorry, I learn something new everyday!
Logic 7 is simply the BEST matrix format there is. L7 is quite a bit better than both PL2 and Neo 6 on my Harman/Kardon 5500. Indeed if you listen to a lot of Sky or stereo material on TV (L7 is also great for CD music) the Harman/Kardon range is almost a no-brainer because of L7
Out of interest, why doesnt L7 get marketted big style? If it is that good, surely there should be a fortune to be made!
Erm...........No I don't think so.
Hmmmm... I am a bit late with this topic, but let's bounce it back too life...
To be completely complete, here goes:
Lexicon designed Logic-7 in 1996, for inclusion in their DC-1 processor. It is featured in all their later processors, the DC-2, MC-1 and MC-12. It can extract 7 channels of sound from any 2-channel source and can also enhance 5.1 discrete surround formats (in the MC-12, it can also do it with DTS ES 6.1 Discrete discs) into 7 individually steered channels. EX and ES matrix are basically a "sub set" of L7, because they have mono rears, while L7 has stereo rears. L7 is so good, that I use it all the time. For 2-channel sources, it definitely beats DPLII and especially DTS Neo:6. The only matrix decoder for 2-channel sources that's on par with L7 is Trifield by Meridian. For 5.1-channel sources, it is simply the best.
The Logic-7 version H/K uses is not adjustable like the version in the Lexicon processors and it cannot process 5.1 discrete soundtracks.
The Lexicons are indeed used as encoders, to produce a stereo downmix from a 5.1 channel discrete soundtrack. Examples are Lord of the Rings, Blade II and Se7en, which all have a L7 encoded Stereo Surround track. Played back in L7, the mix sounds eerily close to the 5.1 discrete mix.
ok......... i ask again........... how come lexicon arent selling this off to other manufacturers and making a fortune if it is so good???
Yes the H/K range of products have a stripped down version of L7, but this is still better than either PL2 and Neo-6.
Perhaps that was a bit too sweaping a statement. Having said that, Logic 7 is a desirable feature and was one of the reasons I bought a H/K 5500.
I suspect I'm going to get flamed here, but hey ho...
I'm of the opinion that Logic 7 and other 6.1 and 7.1 systems will be of limited success in the market at large. I've not heard any of these systems, but I'm not going to upgrade because I'm really happy with the results that 5.1 and DTS produce. I suspect that this is true for a lot of people, and the other problem is that 'the public' have only just grasped what 5.1 means.
I guess it's a bit like DAT, Betamax and (to a lesser extent) Minidisc: in a market with lots of rival systems, it isn't the system with the best performance that necessarilly wins, but the one that is best supported. DVDs have 5.1 and DTS plastered all over them, and this gives the systems some familiarity. Also, in the UK at least, lots of people have recently invested in hardware and software that uses these systems, so there may be some reluctance to adopting another format.
I suspect the same can be said for SACD and DVD-Audio, which is a huge shame, but this kind of thing has happened before.
buns, that's probably all about protecting your own market. What would a Lexicon have as an advantage over other if they all would have Logic-7? O.k. Harman/Kardon uses it, but this is because they are both part of the Harman concern.
rhoamish, Logic-7 is not a new sound format, just an enhancement of 5.1 and 2.0 soundtracks and music. I can assure you that it's hard to go back to plain vanilla 5.1 once you have been spoiled by Logic-7.
I'm sure there is a fair difference between a 7.1 set-up and a 5.1 set-up: that's why i haven't listened to one - I'll spoil my system!
However, I still think this is a technology that will sit in the sidelines, to a certain extent: the market is pretty bamboozling as it is, and customers as a whole can only take so much on.
Also, in my lounge, I'd fall over the extra speakers...
But if it is that good, they dont need worry about the loss to their own market because they will take royalties from every other box sold with L7. Besides, if there processors are worth having, they shouldnt need to rely on L7.
rhoamish, I think 7.1 systems are getting more and more popular every day, because of THX Surround EX and DTS ES. Also, the THX Ultra 2 specification is tailored for a 7.1 channel system. Remember that Logic-7 is not a new sound format, it has been around from 1996 and has always been better than everything else on the market. Ik will not die, but probably will not be popular either, because it is a proprietary decoding scheme. Every time I listen to a 5.1 system, something seems to be missing as compared to a 7.1 channel system. I wonder, did you ever listen to a well set up 7.1 channel system?
buns, I think Lexicon is not interested in making much money licensing Logic-7. They have their professional products for that. I think they are just not really interested in selling their technology.
I guess that is fair, the only thing being that eventually someone will better them and then they are in trouble.
Wow, there appears to be 2 of us on this site who own Harman Kardon Receievers, what a shock as I though I was the only one!
gartmz, I believe that HK´s latest receiver the 8500 can do the L7 magic on 5.1 sources.
That's great! It really enhances 5.1 sources in my opinion, making the soundstage wider and more open and you lose the ability to pinpoint the speakers.
Pardon a quick generalisation.
Lexicons have L7 which is amazing, so why dont they have all the sales at their price bracket? Are lexicon processors failing to do something that the rivals can do? or do they just not sound as good?
Well, in the States the Lexicons are probably the best sold processors. In the UK, the situation is totally different.
thats what i mean....... over here tag rules. Im sure the majority of our high end members are tag owners. So why doesnt lexicon get much of a look in? Or is it another situation where we pay twice what the US pays for the same thing?
Yes, the Lexicon processors are pretty expensive in the UK, whereas Tag is pretty cheap. In live in The Netherlands, where both are expensive... But I wouldn't want to be without L7, but that's me... Did you know Buzz Goddard (spelling?) worked for Lexicon before he joined Tag? I know a lot of people switched to Tag once Lexicon anounced that there were not going to be any upgrades to the MC-1/DC-2.
BTW, there will be a "baby" version of the MC-12 in the near future. That might be interesting for many.
I always have liked Locic 7 but I do find the Lexicon version MUCH better than the HK one. I am not talking about different levels of kit here. I have found similar issues between Neo6 on Denons and Tags.
Although I am a fan of L7, and would like it on my Tag, I must say that Tri-field would be my preferred option that is available on the Meridian. It is not a Meridian thing but they were obviously involved early and are now the standard barer. This I think is the best of these algorithms. TMS should not be underestimated either. It keeps L and R channel completely un processed and adds subtle involvement from C and rears for HQ muti channel music from stereo sources. PL2 I enjoy but is a little back from these on music performance but is great with tv. Neo6 I am not a fan of, nor do I like Hall, Stadium etc etc.
I almost totally agree with you BeeKeeper.
Trifield is probably the most subtle but effective surround mode avaliable today for 2-channel music sources. However, I like the way L7 gets you into the recording space better. Meridian enhances the music and spatial depth and stability, Lexicon "gets you there". Some may find L7 too aggressive though.
level wise, is the av32 tag on a power with the MC1? (performance if not price)
Separate names with a comma.