What the Hell is this?

[G a f f e r]

OK. I've posted this up elsewhere and no one has a clue so I thought I'd try again.

Here it is in a nutshell:


"Hi.
I have a Jamo DVR50 which outputs either NTSC or PAL in either interlaced or progressive to my projector. However, even though 525p output looks fine, 625p has lots of (?random) darker horizontal lines that come and go on the picture. For instance, the menu's especially and landscape shots on LOTR EE's look terrible. This is why I have to resort back to an interlaced signal with the PAL output.
Can anyone tell me what's going on? Why is PAL progressive affected, but NTSC progressive fine?
My projector recieves the signal via a component lead and is a Panny AE500, yet with the interlaced PAL signal, the projector's onboard deinterlacer works fine and I get no 'interfence' at all - am I connecting it wrong somehow?

I can't figure out why the Jamo (or projector) has an isolated problem with PAL prog output only and would appreciate any help (i'm a bit miffed because the whole point of me buying this DVR50 was to benefit from the PAL progressive output which is unwatchable). I'm not convinced if it even is the player (might be the projector).

Thanx for any help."


As no one can give me any info, I've named it HORIZONTAL BANDING, and here it is in all of its glory....hooray for PAL progressive.....

PS, oddly, I don't get this with any superbit R2 disc and 625p

 

[Kramer]

Possibly a cabling issue. The component cables might not have high enough capacity for the 625p signal (bandwidth). They also may be suffering from interference issues from nearby mains cables.

Try different cables (move the DVD player nearer if need be temporarily), then try a different DVD player to exclude the projector from the equation.

I'm still betting cables though.

Best of luck.

 

[jamesrich]

625p? I thought pal prog, was 576p?

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

625P is the full amount of horizontal lines 576 just happen to have picture info on them so both are correct.

It looks like a clamping issue or macrovision.

Gordon

 

[G a f f e r]

cheers.

It looks like a clamping issue or macrovision

If macrovision, why does it not happen with superbit discs? Also, what's clamping? (sounds too technical... )

Again, the cables work fine with anything else I throw at it.

An aside: If I set the component output on the player to 750p/50 , I can see the jamo main menu, I can also see superbit discs and the AVIA setup disc. But when I try to play a normal dvd (any region) I get no output at all. I would like 750p as then I'd get 1:1 pixel matching on the projector (1280x720). Interestingly, if I then go into the service menu (self check) on the projector, Vsync=0.000 and Hsync=0.000. {With the (viewable) jamo menu displaying at 750p/50 I get Vsync=60.141 Hsync=45.106 (or something like that)}.
Does this help any?

 

[Peter Parker]

Now that Gordon mentions it, I seem to remember reading that the Superbit disks didn't have Macrovision, so that could well be the problem. Like you though, I'm surprised that it doesn't do it with interlaced, unless the onboard processing doesn't have macro removal set for the progressive input. If that's the case, it could just be a firmware/hardware oversight on the progressive signal.

Do you have a calibration disk like Avia? I don't think that has Macrovision either. Gordon?

Gary.

 

[Messiah]

Superbit discs do NOT have macrovision. One of the incredible things that most of the AV journos commented on and were very surprised by. CTHE tried giving some reason but basically I guess someone just forget to specify it. for them, for us.

 

[Paul D]

I use the DVR50 on my Panasonic 42" plasma.
Both 480p and 576p work fine.
I do have to select PAL or NTSC manually though.
Remember using progressive scan(from the DVD player) doesn't always mean a better picture. Sometimes the projectors/displays de-interlacing is better.
The other resolutions in the secret menu don't change anything(at least on my player).
Jamo have said they are a left over from the Kiss player it is based on, which had a VGA output socket.
There is a firmware patch available on the jamo website.
Check you have the latest firmware etc.

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Just because something works with macrovision encoded discs at 480P doesn't mean it will with 576P ones. I know of a MAJOR projector manufacturer who is still trying to sort out a 576P macrovision issue that only shows up when their unit is fed from a couple of hi-end DVD players.

I never knew that Superbit wasn't macrovision encoded. You could play AVIA as well to check as it is not copyprotected.

Gordon

 

[Messiah]

Extract from newscientist.com

"New ultra-high resolution DVD movies have been released in Europe without a key form of copy protection technology, New Scientist has learned.

The disks could be seen as the perfect master disk by pirates wishing to make copies of the films. And the discovery comes just as a new report reveals that six out of ten people in the UK illegally copy music and movies.

Sony's Columbia Tristar has put on sale sixteen DVDs that utilise the new Superbit process, including Men in Black and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Columbia says the process offers "the highest resolution (and) the highest standard for audio and video available on DVD".

Like other DVDs, the disks do have tough digital copy protection, meaning only hackers can duplicate them with a PC. But Macrovision, a technology that prevents people copying by simply connecting the analogue output of a DVD player to the analogue input of a recorder, has not been used.

New Scientist was able to make a copy in this way. And Columbia Tristar confirmed: "The Superbit titles do not feature Macrovision copy-protection. We are reviewing our arrangements with Macrovision.""

 

[rozel]

I have a Phillips DVDR 1000 Mk II dvd recorder. From new the machine's PAL Progressive Scan output has been disabled for copy-protected discs - play back of NTSC dvd's is fine. Similarly, I suspect the reverse may be true in the U.S - NTSC progressive disabled and PAL Progressive ok.

Paul

 

[JohnWH]

Does the banding move around with the picture or is it static. If it moves you migth just have a problem with the ground on one of your leads. Although it wouldn't make sense that superbit discs don't show the problem...

John.

 

[G a f f e r]

thanx for all the info - thought it was the projector for a mo.

Yes, the AVIA disc works fine.
The banding moves depending on the frame but is the same for any given one (ie if you pause, the banding stays still)
Every disc works fine as 525i, 525p, or 625i.
750p and 625p only work with AVIA or superbit (i.e non-macrovision). When they don't work 750p shows nothing at all but 625p shows the banding.

So it looks like it's the macrovision system on the player (not the projector or cables - phew. Cables are IXOS gamma btw and are designed to work well with high bandwith signals).

To confirm, I went to an unnofficial dvr50 site (www.gooddvdstuff.com/kissdvd/) as the jamo is essentially a KiSS drive. Anyway, the firmware has a problem with specifically this, so I'm waiting for the new one to come out 2.8.1.

A BIG THANX to everyone for their help. This one really had me stumped

 

[chrisgriffiths]

Yep, just checked & I get the same horizontal bands on a Panny 500 from a Kiss DP-1000 player when using Progressive Output and upscaling to 720p, it is fine on Interlaced 625i.

Arr well - time for that DVI cable and HTPC methinks

(Kiss player gets relegated back downstairs to 28" Crt)

 

[Paul D]

Can i just check that the projector is doing the scaling etc?

 

[G a f f e r]

projector scales Everything to its native 1280x720 resolution unless it's 750p input via YPbPr or DVI-D