1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What scenes have looked more 3D to you?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Gary Lightfoot, Jun 25, 2005.

  1. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    I was wondering about the question of what gives image depth after I realised that some of the scenes I've seen on digital look pretty 3D too, and they were brightish scenes too - one was during the opening of Final Flight of the Osiris, and the other was when Woody was getting a makeover in TS2. I'll be using the Osiris as a demo clip on the Don's (Godfathers) CRT when I see it so it will be a good comparison as I'm quite familiar with the scene.

    Neither of those two scenes I mentioned required a particularly high contrast ratio as far as I can tell, so I had an idea - if we could get a small list up of these scenes what I will try to do is take a screen capture of the scene in PowerDVD and WinDVD and use a paint program to measure the digital range as best I could (I.E. black will be D16 as R0.G0.B0, white D235 as R235.G235.B235.) and then see how that translates when projected by setting up a smaller screen so I could then run my light meter over it and measure the highest and lowest lux in the same image.

    If the same image has a 3D look on both CRT and DLP we might be able to quantify it maybe, if we can get an image that looks 3D on one but not the other, then that will help too I would think. I've enclosed an example as a jpg (I'll use bmp as it's more accurate) and left the AR as is because resizing to 1024 x 576 wouldn't allow me to post it. bmp would be too large as well.

    If anyone thinks this idea is fundemantaly flawed or if there is a better way of doing it then I'm all ears. :)

    Gary.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,741
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    Both those films are CGI! CGI animation always looks good on digital displays (hence the reason the majority of retailers demo scenes from Toy Story, Monsters Inc etc.)
    It would be a better test to compare film based material, which would give you a better idea of 3 dimensionality and contrast abilities. A good test scene is the infamous 'jumping off' scene from the Fifth Element. In this respect, the CRT will blow away your digital.

    Regards

    Yaz :)
     
  3. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    Here we go again.... :boring:
     
  4. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,741
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    Sorry to put you to sleep Gary, but you did ask which scenes looked more 3D and if there was a better way to conduct your test :confused:
     
  5. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    As Yaz has said, it would indeed be more accurate to use real world images, although animation sometimes appears to have a depth of field in reality it simply can't,there is no real depth of field.

    Also they do not have the infinite degrees of subtlety of colour gradations and transitions, that a true film based source can contain.

    To be honest Gary I must admit I have TS2 in my workshop, not for depth reasons but simply as a movie I know very well indeed,and for that reason I think you should still take it along as you know it well, check out the scene where Woody meets Jesse and stinky pete etc for the first time.
    This is a dimly lit scence with very nice colours, I love the reds on Jesse et all in this scene.

    Maybe try LOTR near the start as they enter the shire, but most of all just watch a variety of discs that you know very well, you will enjoy it Gary, Godfather is a superb host and most important of all has a true passion for movies, and that's what it's all about at the end of the day.

    Which remind's me,as Godfather is a true classic's man, I suggest you also try out good ol' black and white material too, Do you have Casablanca, Henry has it, movies such as this help us escape "demo-disc" material for more real world alternative's.

    Hope you have a great time Gary.

    james
     
  6. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    I come over here full of enthusiasm to try and learn something about CRT and it's abilities, and so far all I seem to get is comments like this and barely any technical content. My Ferrari is better than your McDonalds seem to typify the comments.

    All I want to do is try and quantify the 3D effect but now I find I'm starting to lose the will to live....
     
  7. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    Also forget to mention good old Fifth element, well done Yaz.

    Gary this is the crt section, thus most of the guy's in this section use them, please don't blame them for being passionate about them, they are this way for good reason, just keep an open mind and maybe, just maybe you will be amazed at what you see at Godfather's.

    At worst you will get to meet a real enthusiast, and will get to chin wag about this great hobby, make sure he supply's chocolate biscuits.

    james
     
  8. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    Hi James,

    I used TS2 because I'd seen a screen shot of that scene on a CRT via avs forum and it looked fantastic. Admitted screenshots rarely portray the true content as things get changed buy both camera and PC but they were just examples to get the ball rolling.

    Thanks for the recommendations - I have "It's a Wonderful Life" (one of my favourite films), but will like to see Casablanca as it was one of the first films I saw as a kid in my schools film club.

    I'm looking forward to meeting Henry and enjoying some movie watching.

    Gary.
     
  9. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    Gary, Have I said something wrong?? I aim to be very factual, dont believe I trash anyone elses choice of display device and have Invited you down (or up??) offer still stand's by the way would be good to meet you.

    james
     
  10. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    Darn it, Is,nt it weird when two people must be typing at the same time, and thing's get out of oreder due to a very slow one fingered typist such as I.

    Ah 'wonderful life' truly top stuff, oh Henry also has 'singing in the rain' now there's a good disc to use,if you dare admit to me you dont have it in your collection your credibilty will be shot to bits :D come on Gary dont let me down on this one.


    james
     
  11. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,741
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    Sorry Gary for my kneejerk reaction comment! :D
    It's become an automated defense response to any digital pj owners comparisons with CRT. Seeing your other thread, I can understand what you are doing, but would like to see results for film based material also, if possible.

    Regards

    Yaz :)
     
  12. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    Sorry about how you feel. When I first got into CRT about a year ago I was guilty of making one or two comments along the lines of 'CRTs are so much better there's just no comparison'. But as time went by I've learned about their flaws too, so now I do feel a bit embarassed when I read some blanket 'blow away' statements that get dished out on this forum. Sure a well setup G90 will blow away most digitals in most areas, but I don't believe that applies to all CRTs. Your contribution here and in particular your desire to quantify things and demystify the black art of CRT is a breath of fresh air, so do stick around!
     
  13. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    Yaz, I know this feeling well, and kneejerk reaction is a very good way to word it, when I held my event,Part of me wanted to proudly show the world out there that these ol' thigs are still truly awesome.

    Thus I left myself wide open to a bunch of very critical people, and I think all of them were very impressed indeed, although I was not looking for any type of pat on the back, I at least hoped all concerned would give my beastie the respect it deserved.

    Even though most agreed it was the best picture they had ever seen, I can fully understand and appreciate why it would not be the choice for them 'Paul D' for example has stood up and said, at the moment the top nine's rule for picture quality, this year.

    Next year or the year after that who knows?

    I suspect I may be keeping my unit quite some time, after all one day when I make the jump to fixed panel or a derivative, it will have to offer better perfomance than my unit, be modular with regard's to servicing, if a power supply were to go awol on the marquee it takes less than five minute's to change it out.

    But sadly life teaches us one thing for sure, 'nothing last's forever'

    Hope this does not kick off yet another 'big brother style argue session'

    After all, we all love the same hobby guy's, paul D has a fixed panel, I have my crt but we both respect each other's chioce and found we shared two common interest's, home cinema and a bizarre sense of humour :smashin:

    james
     
  14. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    I love classic cinema (in particular 1930-60s) and have some real gems in my collection which look quite sensational considering thier age. You must see some of them when you visit. Of course I also have TS2, Nemo, LOTR, Matrix, etc so we'll look at those as well.
     
  15. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,741
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    You're right there, James. I've seen the best digitals on the market, IMO the Sony Qualia. As stated before, the hi-def material was truly astounding on this PJ, but dvd material upscaled was not all that good. The black levels were a little dissapointing also. That was my point in reference to CRT & digital. The technology behind CRT currently provides a better contrast/black ratio than the digitals I have seen (so it can be any CRT PJ Henry), I'm not talking resolution here. Digitals provide a much brighter and more colourful (accuracy) image, so there are pros and cons to both technologies. The HD2K is apparently very good at all the above, but I've never seen one in action. If it provides a better picture than my current setup, I won't hesitate to buy one (price notwithstanding ;) !
     
  16. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    Better Yaz, but not always 'blow away' was my point. :)
     
  17. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    I really enjoy this hobby and enjoy even more learing about various aspects of it on a technical basis. You guys tend to have a more hands on experience with your CRTs so I was hoping for some technical chit chat etc.

    I get quite enthusiastic when I learn something new and like to spread the info around - especialy the simple basic stuff that doesn't seem simple and basic until someone tells you about it!

    Setting white and black levels for example. How many people here actually do that? I imagine most of you do but I remember it never even occuring to me until it was shown to me. Then, just as I think I'm getting to grips with something, Gordon comes along and puts a whole new slant on things and sends me back to do some more research. :)

    I love watching movies and tonight I watched some more clips from Star Wars. It has quite a few 3D type scenes in it and I've posted a screen capture. I'm hoping it will look as amazing on Henry's machine as it did on mine. If it doesn't I'll be very dissapointed. ;)

    Gary.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +6
    Quite so yaz, when the fixed panel's are good enough for me I shall have one too, I get to see most unit's out there and trust me there's not much to tempt me yet.

    In many way's I prefer the DILA units above the other fixed panels, it is one of the more filmic units but its black's are very poor indeed.
    I also like the Infocus 777 and the big Marantz, the wonderful thing about the marantz is its build quality (for a dlp) wow! although I think the 777 just edges it on accuracy.

    I have had a play with both, and even with the light output throttled way back they are too bright, in fact brighter than real life itself!

    Whilst watching (after calibration) a rather expensive dlp at Henry's (crt) we both suffered an eye irritation most bizarrely at exactly the same point in time, in just under three minutes.
    The only way we could describe it to each other was "it was like sand in the very back of our eyes), also the colours although very impressive were rather exagerrated.

    I have found they look very impressive in the short term, but are unsatisfactory in the more extended viewing period's,this is only my opinion guy's before anyone jumps on this and uses it as a crt vs dlp duel.

    At the end of the day most folk would find me far less biased than they imagine, after all I am an Installer only, although it states retailer below my avatar I actually do not sell anything at all, and often get asked to do plasma's, fixed panel and audio calibration/set-up.

    My background was high end two channel audio, but of course with a passion for movies it evolved into my current system.

    At the event we had a mix of people as far as their chosen display device was concerned but we all got on really well, I think (or hope) most forgot about my kit and just enjoyed the chosen movie clips, and two channel too (Godfather).

    The great thing about Paul D and Gary here is that although they have fixed panels,both were and are prepared to still go and look at a crt even if they choose not to have one.

    What get's me is the guy's who keep on banging the dlp drum ,yet will not open their eyes/minds to come and have a look.

    Yaz, when the dlp's give the image that us ahem 9" guy's (ooh er) see from our units I bet you and I will be beating them all aside in the queue too get one, have you seen the lovely build on the big Marantz.....I like :)

    There is alway's a way to find a poitive in most thing's, the size of our units for example, soon I intend on fitting a 'swoopy' case to my unit, and i hope to have it custom finished and have a mural air-brushed onto it, I have a couple of ideas for the final result, it won't blend with the room but it will imho look way cool!

    No it is not pink before anyone shout's that out, mind you................. :D


    james
     
  19. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    :rotfl:

    Not bad for a DLP.
     
  20. Vince M

    Vince M
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    473
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lagoa
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well, now everyones finshed saying sorry to each other lets introduce a bit of clarity. :smashin:

    This is the crt forum,people owning crt do so because they have a preference for crt.(i.e they prefer the PICTURE.)
    Because of this they are passionate about crt,especially the guys lucky enough to own top 8" or 9".
    There is nothing wrong with that.
    By the same token,dlp or lcd owners are in the digital forum because thats their preference.
    Where things get boringly repetative,is when a digital owner comes in and wants to "learn about crt" But wont accept they are better-wants everything technically quantified etc..

    Do we have to walk on eggshells all the time? We have a preference..I have a preference-when I dont prefer crt any more i`m in the digital forum :thumbsup:

    IF someone truly wants to learn what wonderful pictures crt can produce,then come and see-Gary to his credit is going to see a crt.

    Great,because all these round the houses debates are a waste of time-and what do we wind up learning? The crt`ers prefer crt ..and the digital owners prefer dlp/lcd..

    Thats it.

    But god forbid you make a "blows away" statement about crt in the crt forum because you are actually in danger of REALLY expressing a preference-and of course that not PC.

    **Having said this,i`m sure similar comments have been made in the digital forum-its just that i dont go in there to read them! :lease:
     
  21. Vince M

    Vince M
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    473
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lagoa
    Ratings:
    +0
    A couple of shire pics from the Fellowship ,taken from a NEC XG110LC.

    Superb sense of depth looking through Bilbos house..
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Vince M

    Vince M
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    473
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lagoa
    Ratings:
    +0
    Two from a G70 ..Spartacus dvd.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    The thing that I like about CRT projectors is that pretty much everything looks like it has real depth. With digital projectors it very much depends on the source material, some things look great, others look really flat.
     
  24. Vince M

    Vince M
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    473
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lagoa
    Ratings:
    +0
    The thing is Jeff,I Get my n**ts chewed for saying the very same thing :) ..but the reality is its hard to quantify a total perception,Im not hugely technical but can get a good pic up on the screen..my system is not particularly esoteric and my room not massive,but when I give someone a demo its a "real world" demo.
    I like to show how good these things can look "normally" ..then with a great install and maybe an ISF cal..wow!!!
    But when someone sees for themself then they know what im going on about with the sense of depth thing..talk is cheap,but I like to think i can qualify what i say.
    If you look at the thumbnails-even though pics no way do the real pic justice-you can get a sense of the depth,and these are pics are taken with a basic digital camera(2megapixel) and not fiddled around with.
    Again real world//hand held pics.
    My door is always open to enthusiasts that just want to have a look,and many do..I seldom make much of a deal about it,heck even these digital boyos that give me some grief are welcome anytime to have a look at whatever I may have in the hot seat-or bring their digital to see if they prefer.(Ive had this a couple of times).
    **Mind you next up is a Vidikron Vision one(Marquee 9500LC)..a black demon with all the mods..should look better than a "stock" Marquee..now how close to the Cine 9..uuummm..with all the mods should be real close..
    I`ll take some screenshots and post when I have it..hopefully next week.
     
  25. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    You obviously spotted it Henry, but I thought I would have gotten more response than that from some of the others. :D

    Gary.
     
  26. Vince M

    Vince M
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    473
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    Lagoa
    Ratings:
    +0
    Henry(GODFATHER)

    This is the pic of the black NEC ..
     

    Attached Files:

  27. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    James,

    A lot of your comments re DILA and 3 chippers are similar to my own thoughts. I don't like projectors that are too bright (depending on the scren of course) because it can enhance mpg artefacts etc and start to look more like video than film, so I always filter my output to 12ft lamberts or less. Much more film like IMHO though some prefer the higher brightness...

    The eye thing you and henry mentioned sounds like DLP related eye fatigue. A real bummer to get if your one of those that it affects.

    Yep, you can find fault with almost everything if you want to. Some even invent stuff if they're that way inclined but like yourself I try to be open honest about things and after all, we're all in this hobby to enjoy the movies we watch. Should be a fun evening at Henry's and I'll have plenty of time to take in the image.

    Gary.
     
  28. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,741
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    I was unable to reply, on account Hamil elbowed me in the head and then swiftly took my eye out with his staff! ;)
     
  29. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,085
    lol - excuses. :)

    Gary.
     
  30. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    Good looking machine. Do the NEC LC models have contrast modulation as standard? Without it I find the colour shift of CRTs quite unbearable. It's a cheap (£150) option on the Barcos and it was fitted on my Cine 7 and now 808.
     

Share This Page

Loading...