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What is the qualitative difference between Oiginal Cd and Copy CD?

Discussion in 'Music & Music Streaming Services' started by Jazzartist, Jun 25, 2003.

  1. Jazzartist

    Jazzartist
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    Hallo there ,

    Can you guys tell about your opinion on whats the qualitative difference in music recording quality between Original Cd and Copy version . Personnaly I am never satisfied with Copy . I dont know if this issue is already disscussed if its disscussed already then please inform about the thread.
     
  2. karkus30

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    Not that we would stoop to copying albums ;) but if we did, then I think you will find a dedicated CD copier produces slightly better results to a pc copied disc. This is probably because a dedicated disc recorder has a hi fi spec PSU etc etc.

    All copies are inferior to the original, but its dificult to tell.
     
  3. Jazzartist

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    I have found the copied CDs sound more louder and distorted then the original do you agree with me on this point ? What is the PSU spec ? By the way I am not in favour of copying I have posted to learn about the topic and to know other folks opinion. Buts its a fact that many country dont have copyright laws and in many countries the copyright is violated . One unfortunate fact is that in our country Copy of CD / DVD and other formats is common and surpriseingly we have seen the Tourists coming from the western countries where copyright is seriously practiced are one of the main customers thse tourist buy in bulk quantities what surprise me is how they can enter their country with all this pirated DVD / CD / Games etc . Are this wetern tourist defiant of copyright laws ? Any way thanks for your reply .
    Regards.

    Jazzartist
     
  4. Simon6776

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    I have a Pioneer PDR-609, stand alone CD Recorder, and I find that copies always sound slightly 'brighter' than the originals. I also find that PC copies sometimes sound 'bassier' than the originals.

    It's usually a question of time. It obviously takes the length of the CD to make a copy on a stand alone machine, whereas you can do it in a few minutes on a PC, and as I only use them for playing in the car, I don't notice a large difference in quality.
     
  5. Branxx

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    Why did you feel necessary to justify your reason(s) for asking this question? There are many legitimate reasons a lawful owner would what to copy a CD and I always assume the question has been asked in this context.

    As for illegal copying, it is a myth that it is mostly happening in third world countries. In fact the most of it is in the US and Western Europe.

    I haven’t notice any difference in sound quality between the original and the copy. I use HTPC exclusively to listen to CD and always ripped them before listening. In some case I have found that ripped CD sounded slightly better than playing it directly and in every case it was easier to and more convenient to subsequently use and enjoy the music material.

    I am yet to hear a stand-alone CD player (at reasonable cost, say <£3,000) that sound better that well equipped HTPC.
     
  6. nathan_silly

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    My backup CD's sound identical to the original. I use decent bit-for-bit software, and read & write and double speed.
     
  7. Jazzartist

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    Branxx,

    Thanks for your reply .What is your HTPC set up ?

    Nathan _silly,

    Can you please explain more about your Cd writer , bit for bit software and read and write and double speed?

    Jazzartist
     
  8. nathan_silly

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    I have a Yamaha SCSI CD-RW. Bit for bit means it'll copy whatever is on the disc, not just the audio tracks. It'll copy a CD-Extra disc (two sessions- first session audio, second session data track) and all other types.

    I've found if you go higher than quad speed (on older drives) the quality decreases (PCM doesn't have error correction, so a error will result in a click) Newer CD-R drivers are alot better now, my old Philips 2x writer clicked when reading in at 6x. Nowaways you can read at 8x or 12x and are fine. However fastest I read & write is 4x

    I'm not sure I can say what s/w I use- Mods will probably remove my comments.
     
  9. Branxx

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    Jazzartist,

    I've updated my signiture with liks to the equipment I am using. Just click on HTPC.

    Nathan,

    there is nothing in this thread that would warrant mods intervention.
     
  10. nathan_silly

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    Branxx, why have you got 10 M&K 2510P? I thought the most you need would be front, centre, left, side left, side right, rear right, rear left... what are the other three?

    I use cdrwin (also called golden hawk), clonecd- them two for cd audio and unusual CD's and Easy CD Creator for data backup. And DVD dexxxxxx for backing up DVD's.
     
  11. Branxx

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    I have double stacked front speakers, i.e. 6 speakers at the front. 1st row at approx 1.2mm height, 2nd at 1.9m. The rest are as you suggested.
     
  12. LV426

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    If you make a copy using a PC with digital audio extraction then there should be no difference between the original and the copy. The digital data should get transposed onto the copy identical to the original (assuming no errors arise in either the extraction or the writing). If errors do occur, they will not affect the tonal balance or volume of the copy - they may result in clicks or more subtle changes to the sound.

    If you are experiencing volume or tonal changes, it is almost certain that the extraction off the CD is being done as analog and re-sampled by the soundcard; this may well result in tonal and/or volume changes.

    Some CD drives are not equipped with, or are not connected for, digital audio extraction. IIRC, it is a separate port on the drive, and cable running to the motherboard.
     
  13. Jazzartist

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    Branxx,

    You are using amazing stuff. You have done extensive and informative discussion about on your thread I have yet to read the entire thread, very interesting thread. Well I plan to buy the M& k but its quite expensive for me at the moment ,I bet you are quite satisfied with the speakers ! I also think it will cheaper in USA then Uk do agree? By the way do you prefer THX speakers if yes then why ?


    Nathan_Silly ,

    I appreiciate your suggestion about writing at 4 X speed. Hope this produces good result .


    Nigel,

    It never crossed my mind about digital audio extraction .You got it right whnever I record from CD to Cd the copy CD always sound
    more louder and little different in tone. I am using Creative DVD rom and have Liteon CD writer 24 x write. What I have to add to
    the CD rom or the motherboard . Please give details as I am not very knowladgeble about Computer hardwares . Regards.


    Jazzartist
     
  14. Tora Tora

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    I've never really noticed the sound difference with copied CD's, but they're far too easily scratched. I'd made a B-sides album up and it was jumping within three days.
     
  15. LV426

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    I'm not really qualified to answer. I'm one of those people who knows just enough to get by.....

    Here is what it says on the Plextor website (my drive is a Plextor).

    Frequently Asked Questions: Digital Audio Extraction

    Description :
    Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) is the process of encoding track of a AudioCD to a WAV file on the hard disk or any other storage device. This process occurs in a digital way and the result should be exactly the same as the track on the source CD.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Requirements :
    Specialised software is required for DAE. Plextor, include DAE a function in their own developed software Plextools which is bundled with each drive.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Availability :
    Plextor spends a lot of engineering power on developing in the integrating of these functions. Therefore the Plextor CD-ROM devices are highly recommended for error-free DAE extraction and this at the high speed.
     
  16. michaelm

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    Yes, when ripped to HDD. But when recorded to CD-R, the quality does drop. Check the documentation that comes with any decent CD-RW drive for details.

    There is absolutely no way that sound pressed to a commercial disc and then copied to an organic dye disc is going to sound the same. Wow and flutter increase for a start, and the overall volume drops, as opposed to getting louder. Add to this the quality of the CD-R to begin with (some I have used have been almost completely transparent).

    However, unless you have "golden ears" I doubt if you would hear the difference.
     
  17. LV426

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    I don't follow, at all, how a true digital copy can suffer the artefacts you describe. Digital data is digital data. It's all ones and zeros. True, errors may arise in the transfer, and the numbers of these may differ depending on the quality of the blank used and/or the write speed. But these errors do not, indeed, cannot, have an overall effect on the quality of the sound. They may have momentary effects (such as clicks, or the more subtle effects of error correction in the player). But, if during the copy process, the digital data is not edited, I don't see how changes can occur.

    Unless, of course, the wave file is converted, say, to mp3 or wma during the copy process, which does change it.
     
  18. nathan_silly

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    When you copy a CD, the process is exactly the same as copying a data CD. If the error checking is perfect (good drive, lowish speed) It'll be identical.

    Do copied CD's get corrupted if you do it right? Nope. The same for a audio CD.
     
  19. keiths

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    Seems entirely logical to assume that, doesn't it? However the difference is that the data CD doesn't then undergo conversion to an analogue signal like audio data does. This matters because there are then other factors which can influence the sound quality. 'Jitter' is one such effect. Bob Stuart (the inventor of MLP - the compression algorithm used by DVD-A and founder of the Meridian Hi Fi company) demonstrated over 10 years ago that a CD and a CD-R with identical digital audio data could sound different due to jitter (the CD-R sounded better than the original CD as it exhibited lower HF jitter!)

    Things like disc eccentricity (ie slightly off-centre centre hole) can also effect sound quality in some players. Servo circuits have to work 'harder' to track the disc resulting in greater power requirements that can effect the analogue circuits if the digital and analogue sections of the player share common power supply and/or regulation circuits. So if the CD-R copy is less or more eccentric than the original, it could sound better or worse!

    These and many other effects are small but cumulative, and may well be audible by some people in some systems.
     
  20. LV426

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    All plausible. But none of these effects can, if I understand DA conversion correctly, have a fundamental effect on the sound - ie can't affect its volume or tonal balance as has been suggested here. Any effects are confined to extremely subtle, probably largely inaudible, differences. It doesn't seem likely, for example, that greater (or lesser) demands on the tracking servo will cause the copy to sound, say, louder, or more or less 'bassy'.
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Wise words Keith.

    Gordon

    P.S. Meridian are licensors of MLP and developed it but I don't think you could say Bob Stuart invented it. Meridian bought the rights to compression algorithms done by some other guys in early seventies I believe. It is that work which is the heart of MLP isn't it?
     
  22. keiths

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    I would cautiously agree, however the audibility of subtle effects such as these is likely to be pretty unpredicable - jitter is usually percieved as 'grit', 'glare' or 'harshness' in the treble, which I suppose could be interpretted 'louder treble' or 'less bassy' depending on the listener.

    Also as there are many other factors that MAY effect the quality of the copy each in a subtle manner, the cumulative effect of these may be sufficient to cause psychoacoustic effects percieved as a loudness or tonal balance change.

    There's an old Stereophile article by Robert Harley that discusses manufacturing issues that may effect CD sound quality. Some of these may be relevant to CD-R copies (it also mentions in passing the Bob Stuart demo I referred to in my post).

    http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?827:0
     
  23. Daneel

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    Differences during playback on a CD player due to jitter and similar effects between a pressed disc and a CDR may well be be present but I am quite sure that no one can tell the difference.

    Show me 1, just 1 person who can tell a copied CD (done correctly using EAC in secure mode, with decent media, burner and CD player that copes well with CDRs) from the original consistantly in a double blind test and I'll eat my hat.

    If I take an original CD do DAE on it, burn it and then DAE the copy; the original wav files and the wav files extracted from the copy are IDENTICAL, using a bit comparison. (this proves that jitter etc has no effect on the data provided by the CD drive to the computer)
     
  24. greeny

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    No it Doesn't!

    Jitter is only an issue when we are converting to Analogue as we must do to hear the damn thing. Your 'perfect' copy may have significantly increased jitter and when converted to analogue this produces a 'worse' sound.

    jitter is also one of the reasons some CD transports are better than others, otherwise all CD transports would be the same right!.

    As for it being significant or not, well if not what's the point of SACD, DVD-A etc. These are subtle changes you probably wont hear in a Car/ghetto blaster etc but on a good HiFi you might. Having said that some copies are very good and some even perceived better than the original.

    Bear in mind when doing a copy, that if copying to a hi speed disk you can't copy at a slow speed, this produces worse results as the dye reacts too quickly. It's trial and error I'm afraid, what speed produces best results on your PC with your make of blanks. If you can't tell the difference use the highest speed.
     
  25. Daneel

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    Yes it does. Read what I wrote again.

    I made no mention of analogue conversion or anything else. My point is that you can repeat the process a hundred times and the quality will never drop because the data is identical.

    Agreed, but how significant it is and how much difference it makes depending on the electronics that go with it is another matter.

    I don't see how DVD-A or SACD come into this. What do they have to do with perfect CD copies or jitter? They use different techniques to sample the sound which results in more data and hopefully a more acurate representation of the original sound.
     
  26. mjn

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    i copy all my cd's, for a number of reasons.

    But since you're copying digital data, how can there be a difference between the 2 copies?

    It's either a 1 or a 0, there is no analogue to digital conversion or vice versa.
     
  27. Kali

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    Theres a noticeable difference, even on my pretty low-end system between a manufactured (original) cd and the cheapest quality CD-Rs... mainly down to poor reflection & cheap construction however when you start using decent quality media, this becomes next to indistinguishable.

    Thats obviously for direct copies, but for compressed audio onto a cd (i.e. creating audio cds from an mp3 album) there is an enormous difference (altho the higher bitrates the harder this becomes to notice)..
     
  28. Branxx

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    I was inspired/provoked by this thread that I decided to do a test.

    I used the original CD Yo-Yo Ma & Bobby McFerrin: Hush.

    First, I ripped the original CD into WAV files using Sonic Foundry Siren. I then used Nero to copy the CD, and subsequently ripped the copy into a similar set of WAV files.

    Using the DOS COMP command I’ve compared each file in turn.

    It turns out all files are identical with exception to 10 bytes. Those ten bytes (on different location for different tracks) are all hex ‘00’ in the original WAVs and hex ‘FF’ in the copy WAVs.

    I don’t know what is the meaning of data on those ten positions but considering that the files are in generally 10-15MB large the 10 bytes probably have no audio meaning but are used to flag that the disk was copied.

    There are not differences in audio quality between the two files.

    It would be good idea is other would try the similar test using different rippers and CD copy programs.
     
  29. Daneel

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    Branxx, look a few posts up. Using EAC and Nero I got identical wav files from the original CD and the CDR. It is a perfect copy, exactly the same as the original.
     
  30. keiths

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    Hi,

    Don't really want to prolong this thread, but just to reiterate that just because the two .wav files compare bit-for-bit DOESN'T NECESSARILY mean that they will sound the same!

    When you play a CD/CD-R, you are not listening directly to 1s and 0s, but an analogue signal that is derived from them - digital to analogue conversion is required. The are several mechanisms that can cause two bitwise identical .wav files to sound different after D to A conversion. Jitter is the most obvious one and a brief description of jitter, how it occurs and how it effect sound quality can be found here:

    http://www.jitter.de/english/sound.html

    For the record, I can't say that I notice any gross differences between original CDs and CD-R copies on my system (Arcam Delta 170 transport, Monarchy DIP, Audiolab 8000DAC, Arcam A85 + P85 biamping Mission 753 Freedoms), but that is not to say that someone with better ears/a better stystem/poorer copies would not be able to do so.
     

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