What is the purpose of HD recorders?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Bal2005, Sep 25, 2005.

  1. Bal2005

    Bal2005
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    What is the purpose of HD recorders?

    You I know you gonna say so you can record whatever you want to it and keep the items, right?

    Well I thought so too and thought I would then transfer my recording onto disc's when I get a chance.

    Still seems correct, right?

    Well I spoke to Panasonics head Tech guy and he has stated that the HD recorders ar not ment for recording things on for a long period of time.

    He stated that the HD's are temporary storage space for short periods of time.

    OK, if this is the case then why are manufactures bringing out larger and larger drives?

    I agree to the extent of what he was saying after I had some corrupted recodings which I was trying to copy back to disc's.

    In other words, since there is no method of defragging your HD's they get fragged and causes problems which is what this person was saying.

    I think it is about time that may manufactures bring out external drives for there machines insted of having 160gb-250gb+ drives build in.

    At least you can then format each drive and not have as much issues.

    Still seems strange to me, the HD's are temporary storage space.

    Thanks and let me know what you think
     
  2. anna the dub

    anna the dub
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    Well, I have a Pioneer 630 which has a 250Gig HD, and it includes an 'Optimise' function, which is, in fact, a defragging function. So, hopefully, no corrupt recordings.

    As to what the point of a HD is, well, personally, I record lots of programmes and keep them on the hard disc as a sort of temporary viewing library. If I record something that I then decide I would like to keep, I burn it to a -R disc. Having had a disc only recorder previously, I now couldn't do without a HD.
     
  3. BigBadFun

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    Huh? ONLY temporary? Sounds like you were talking to a halfwit to me.

    My HDD is invaluable. It acts basically as a temporary storage device but has completely changed the way we watch TV. I guess my wife and I watch a couple of hours a night.... most of the time we used to miss items, or spend time watching ads. With HDD - no more!

    At the start of each month, just flick through the TV guide.... enter everything we want to watch onto the timer... and that's it. No more remembering the News starts at 6pm or Stargate on Friday's late. We spend our extra time with the kids and when all is quiet, kids are in bed.... plop down in front of the TV and just see whats been quietly prerecorded onto the HDD, watch it, skip all the ads, and delete. Bliss. Now we can get three 1 hour shows watched in 2 hours!
     
  4. maldonian

    maldonian
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    In the context of DVD Recorders:

    1 Adding a HDD to a DVD recorder turns it into a PVR. The idea of a PVR is that you watch TV programs when you want to, not when they are broadcast - as exemplified by BigBadFun's post above. Originally it was considered essential that a PVR should learn the sort of programs you watch and automatically schedule recordings (e.g. a TIVO) but now the term is used for just about any hard disk recorder, especially one with an EPG. If you mainly use your recorder for time shifting and it's got an HDD you may find you hardly ever record DVDs.

    2 Material recorded onto HDD can be edited before it is committed to a DVD. If you pad timer recordings (by setting the timer to start a couple of minutes before a program starts and a couple of minutes after it ends), you can trim this excess. You can cut out adverts. If you record two programmes as a single title, you can divide it into two titles. If you have lots of short camcorder takes, you can select which bits you want and combine them into a single title. You can add your own chapters to sub-divide titles. None of this is possible using a non-HDD recorder to record onto a write-once DVD.

    3 If you want to record a series of programmes, you can wait until you have collected the whole series on the HDD before recording them together on one or more DVDs. With a large HDD there is plenty of space for several partly collected series.

    4 If you record directly to a faulty DVD you may lose the entire recording. If you always record onto the HDD first so you can do any editing you want, then high speed dub to DVD, if the DVD is faulty you will still have the recording on the HDD.

    That's off the top of my head, there must other purposes/advantages.

    Panasonic HDD recorders, in common with many others, do not defrag. Instead, they have provision for formatting the HDD. Occasional formatting is recommended, to avoid fragmentation building up, which is presumably why the HDD is considered temporary storage. Anything on the HDD that you want to keep has to be copied to DVD before formatting. DVD-RAM is ideal for this because you can high speed dub back and forth between the HDD and DVD-RAM with no loss of quality. But if you've filled a 400 Gb HDD you will need a lot of DVD-RAM discs. Dubbing to external USB2 or firewire HDDs would be much more convenient and I'm surprised this option has not been provided so far. A Move function would also be very useful (i.e. dub, then erase the source if the dub is successful, all done by a single command).

    It's unwise to keep lots of material on the HDD for a long time without backups (but I'm guilty of doing it). If the HDD develops a fault you could lose the lot.


    Incidentally the abbreviation HD used to refer to a hard disk or hard drive, but nowadays it is often used to refer to high definition. The abbreviation HDD (hard disk drive) avoids possible confusion.
     
  5. eddyad

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    The main use is time-shifting TV (no more trying to remember which program is on which tape [DVD]), and putting occasional programs you want to keep on to DVD. They also act as perfectly good DVD players if you buy DVDs.
     
  6. Bal2005

    Bal2005
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    Sorry if my post was misunderstood as I never said HD recorders don't have there place as I use mine for time slip recording and editing etc.

    What I was trying to say is if the HD is suppose to only temporary recording then why is it not stated.

    What I use to do is record things to the HD and edit them when i got a chance and put them on DVD.

    Until recently I found that recordings going back as far as July last year have problems. These were things like Party in the Park etc which you wouldn't use a DVD-r/ram disc for.

    Also even the more recent as the Ashes.

    What is doing my head in is that I cannot put these onto any form of disc so I done some search on here and somethings I can get away with, by recording on DVD's in normal mode. In other words, not able to do it with High Speed.


    Bigbadfun

    Huh? ONLY temporary? Sounds like you were talking to a halfwit to me.

    Well the person I spoke to was the head Tech guy you wouldn't speak to normally and he only picked up the phone while no one else was in the office.

    But at the end of the day, least someone here agrees with me why they don't just bring out a USB/Firewire external drives to there units.

    This would do more than external storage space but also the funtion of allowing things like Divx being played that way and maybe even pictures.

    Guess I learned the hardway and I have 50 odd DVD-Ram disc's so I will from now on record the things from my HD to them until I get a chance to edit it.

    Thanks
     
  7. illustrator

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    getting off the subject slightly, back in the days when the DMR-E100 was Panny's flagship model there was a story that If you installed Panasonic Motion DV Studio on your PC you could connect it via firewire/DVin to the E100, therefore being able to transfer recordings back & forth between the PC & DVD recorder.

    Has Anyone ever tried it? & if it worked could it be used with later recorders.

    If it does work it could be your external drive solution, dump the damaged files across to the PC then burn them from that
     
  8. Bal2005

    Bal2005
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    Not tried it as I have an E85 and it don't have a firewire/DV port.

    Also I can copy to Ram disc on standard recording mode without high speed.

    Just a pain as I will have to record on Ram disc's for anythign which won't copy and then I can dump these on my PC.

    Thanks
     
  9. maldonian

    maldonian
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    What sort of problems? Don't the recordings play properly? Are they jerky, or do they jump, or do they pixelate? Do you sometimes see parts of other recordings?

    Were the recordings ok at first then became faulty later? Or have they been faulty ever since they were recorded?

    Why can't you dub them? Is it because the recordings are too large to fit onto discs without re-encoding, or does high speed dubbing fail?


    You've had your E85 for quite a while. Have you done lots of editing of recordings on the HDD (deleting adverts for example)?
     
  10. Bal2005

    Bal2005
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    The problems being as pointed out.

    I can not dub back to a DVD disc in High speed.

    Also yes, I have deleted adverts out as I normaly do.

    The way I normally do this is in one method of , going to chapter view, creating chapters and in that mode i put a chapter mark at the start of the ads and just before the programme starts again.

    When it completes it shows all the chapters I have made and then I delete the one with the ads.

    I have always done it like this, without a problems.

    I can't confirm but I am sure that if I do not touch the recording at all and then just dubb it to a disc, it is ok.

    The reason i say this, is because if it is VHS family stuff I want to record, I normally record this to HD and then dub to a DVD-Ram. i then edit this on my PC and make a proper DVD-r out of it with menu's etc.

    I am in the process of coping what i can of the HD and then will wipe the rest.

    Thanks
     
  11. Tocsin

    Tocsin
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    I have an E85 also, and started with deleting advert chapters the way you are doing.

    Now I mark chapters the same way, but create a playlist that misses out the ads. This way the original recording (say 1 hr) remains on the HDD.

    Deleting advert chapters means that you have chunks on the HDD (say 10 mins, 2 min gap, 15 mins, 3 min gap, etc). Once this has been done a few times with new recordings using the gaps...

    So I suggest:

    (a) if you can, copy everything off and format the HDD
    (b) use playlists to edit, then delete the whole programme off the HDD when you have a good copy.

    HTH
     
  12. maldonian

    maldonian
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    Ok. So the recordings play ok and you can dub them at normal speed. But you can't dub them at high speed to DVD-R or DVD-RAM.

    Not being able to high speed dub to DVD-RAM rules out the 'DVD-R Rec for High Speed mode' setting.

    Out of interest, what happens when you try to high speed dub? Do you get a 'Dubbing has failed' message part way through dubbing?

    It sounds like your hard disk is so fragmented that the heads can't jump about fast enough to keep up with the data rate of a high speed dub. If so, formatting the HDD will cure it.

    I agree with Tocsin. Clear the HDD and format it. And if you use playlists for editing as he suggests it will reduce the rate of fragmentation significantly. The alternative is to always edit, dub and erase before making any new recordings. For example, I find partial erase quicker to use than playlists. I wait until I'm ready to dub before I edit a recording, use partial erase to cut out the bits I don't want, high speed dub what's left to DVD-RAM, then immediately erase the recording from the HDD. That way the whole space that was occupied by the original recording is freed up before I record anything else.

    Fragmentation is still going to occur because recordings are different lengths, but it should take a lot longer to build up if you only erase whole recordings.
     
  13. Bal2005

    Bal2005
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    If I dub at high speed it completes and then finalises what ever it does after high speed dubbing, then my Panny reboots.

    The disc has had the item recorded on it and the space has gone, but I can not finalise the recording etc as it says no recording to finalise.

    I have no idea what it does at the end, unless it's building up some disc structure?

    From now on I will record important things of the HD to DVD-Ram as I have around 50 now.

    Thanks
     
  14. maldonian

    maldonian
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    That sounds more like a problem with the DVD drive.

    Can you high speed dub some of your recordings? Or are you having problems with all of them?

    I had the impression (or perhaps I assumed) that you are only having problems with some your recordings. If this is wrong, if you cannot high speed dub any recording, then it points towards a faulty DVD drive rather than fragmentation.

    Anyway, I would still try formatting the HDD.

    Good luck! Let us know how you get on.
     

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