1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What is the Best Way to Edit AVI Files from Digital Camcorder?

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Editing Forum' started by cmulder, May 31, 2004.

  1. cmulder

    cmulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Okay, here is the issue. I am using Screenblast (Sony) to create movies from my digital camcorder. The problem is that when I capture video, I only use portions of the captured files in the final production. However, there is no option (or at least I haven't found one) to splice that scene out of the original AVI file so that only the scene I am using is saved back to the hard drive as the AVI file (I want to do this of course, so I can save space on the hard drive by getting rid of video I'm not using in the final production).

    I tried first editing the files in TEMPGenc 3.0 Express to pair down the scenes I wanted and then to encode it in a separate AVI file, but the problem there if I use the "Uncompressed" VIdeo Option, the file is much larger. I only have 3 choices for compression: "Cinepak Codec by Radius" (far too slow), "Microsoft Video 1" (makes the file bigger by about 70 percent), Microsoft Windows Media Video 9 (Reduces file size, but the quality is poor).
    Using TEMPGenc would be a suitable option IF I could use a compression codec that was the same as the AVI I am capturing from my camcorder.

    Are there any other options/programs? What Codec or settings to I used in TEMPGenc 3.0 to get the same compression and file size for the outputted AVI file? The easiest would be a program where you could just cut out scenes and save the AVI file without encoding it, but I am sure that's not possible or is it?
     
  2. cmulder

    cmulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
  3. cmulder

    cmulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
  4. MarkE19

    MarkE19
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    17,109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Rainham Essex
    Ratings:
    +2,381
    The way I see what you are trying to do is capture video, edit out and delete the unwanted bits to save disk space and then carry on from there.
    The problem with this is that editing on a PC is non distructive. ie you edit but the edits are only really in theory and do not cut bits off the origional file. In other words everything you do can be undone.
    To save space by getting rid of the cut sections of video you would need to edit and then save each section under another name and delete the origional files. This is not what is normally required with NLE as the whole point is to be able to undo everything. You should only capture the scenes that are required and then do small trims to create the final edit.

    Mark.
     
  5. cmulder

    cmulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I understand, but if you want to have the ability to go back and edit your projects, you can't delete any of the original AVI files. So to save space, you can edit out the sections you need first and delete what you don't need. Your way is best, if there is unlimited Disc space, but as you know, these video files are huge.
     
  6. MarkE19

    MarkE19
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    17,109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Rainham Essex
    Ratings:
    +2,381
    Well not really! Editing of AVI files is a data bassed edit and in real terms nothing is actually deleted. I believe that this is so for all NLE programs.
    It is not until you export your project in any format that the edited files are actually created. You could edit each AVI file andthen export it as another AVI and delete the origional, but you still need plenty of space as every 4 minutes of AVI takes 1Gb of disk space.
    The only other way I know of aving space is to capture & edit files as MPEG-2. The problem of this is a fairly large loss of quality and jerky edits etc due to the lossy format of MPEG encoding.

    Mark.
     
  7. cmulder

    cmulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Actually, no--Digital Camcorder AVI is compressed to about 1/4th to 1/5 of that size, so 1 minute of DV AVI is about 200 to 225 Megs. So, as an example, if you are making a movie from DV AVI (most camcorders use DV AVI compression Codecs), you should render it in DV AVI since to render it in uncompressed AVI, your not gaining anything, but increasing the size significantly. At least that's the way I understand it and no matter what capture device I use, my AVI video comes in at about 225 Megs for each 1 minute of AVI.

    Anyway, that's the point of finding a Codec that I can use in TEMPGenc to output DV AVI in the same quality as it comes in from my Camcorder (see my first post). I actually was able to locate a Sony DV Codec, although I was really looking for the Canon DV Codec because I have a Canon Optura 20. But the Sony Codec does a really nice job, better than the Panasonic.

    Anyone know where I can find the Canon DV Codec?
     
  8. MarkE19

    MarkE19
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    17,109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Rainham Essex
    Ratings:
    +2,381
    Time to do your sums :lesson:

    Sending the footage via firewire does, as you say, take approx 225Mb per minute. 225 x 4 = 1000Mb which very approx = 1Gb
    Therefore as I stated above 4 minutes of footage takes approx 1Gb of disk space.

    A DV cam does 5:1 compression within the cam, so yes DV AVI is compressed. But this is done before sending out to a PC, so no PC codecs are required at this stage. NLE programs will work with the AVI files without any conversion, so there should be no loss of quality from the cam to the PC and during editing. There only start to be loss of quality once you convert the AVI files to MPEG-2 for output to DVD etc, or whatever output options you choose.

    Mark.
     
  9. Merlin

    Merlin
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +0
    Cmulder.
    Any chance of a link to where you found the Sony codec please, sounds worth having, or a link to an even better one, the Canon perhaps ?

    Can I just check I have got my head around this codec thing as I find them confusing but this thread is helping me to try to understand all the stages involved in DVD making and VHS.

    If I were to get DV footage off my Panasonic MiniDV camcorder onto PC as AVI via Adobe Premiere, its still got its Panasonic codec encoding or in other words 'compression'. If I then were to simply make a DVD of this, I would not need to use a codec as I havent uncompressed the file. I could use TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 ? I am told by someone they used this as stage one to encode the piece of video they wanted to burn very easily, (just choose DVD pal off the list they said). I am slightly unsettled by their word encode though, does it in fact use a codec and if so, do I need it in this unedited scenario? Might its encoding be inferior to the current compression the avi has or is encoding and compression and codec different things ? If it would be inferior, can one overcome this if so, give it a better one, perhaps the Sony one, like a sort of plug in ?

    They then said...when you have that use another piece called TMPGEnc DVD Author which creates the necessary vob files and sets it all up ready to burn, then he burnt it with Nero.

    Scenario 2: I have two recordings of a scene filmed from two viewpoints and use Premiere to capture both, then edit parts of one into the other to make a more interesting film. Does this still retain the Panasonic codec during this and after the new file is saved ? Then make a DVD as above. If codec is lost during the editing then is this where the TMPGEnc encoding comes into play ?

    Scenario 3: I dont require the middle of the captured footage and delete it in Premiere, then save it as uncompressed avi (wherever that save option resides), it expands in file size and needs a codec to make it a compressed avi again. Do I do this within Premiere and does that prog have a good codec or does e.g. the Sony codec have its own program interface....yes a total newbie :blush:

    Merlin
     
  10. MarkE19

    MarkE19
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    17,109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Rainham Essex
    Ratings:
    +2,381
    A bit of confusion on the role of a codec I think.

    A camcorder creates a 5:1 compression useing its own codec within the camcorder. When you copy the files from DV tape to a PC they are then kept as a 100% copy of those on the tape, so no further compression is applied to the AVI files. The PC only needs a DV codec (be it Sony, Panasonic etc) so it knows how to interpret the AVI files. Most editing software will use their own codecs so you don't need to go looking for one from Sony etc. As long as the files are standard AVI file then any DV codec should work with them.

    A DVD player can not (normally!) read an AVI file if that was copied to a DVD disk. To create the DVD you need to compress the AVI files to DVD complient MPEG-2 files (not all MPEG-2 files are DVD complient). This reduces the size of the files. 1 hour AVI is about 14Gb in size, but a DVD-R etc is only 4.7Gb. A DVD-R can hold approx 1 hour of footage, or more with higher MPEG compression. To get the file size down there is some loss of quality, but if the MPEG encoder is well written then this is near enough unnoticeable.

    The advise you have been given about useing TMPGEnc software to create a DVD is good, and it does give great results, but IMO this is too messy taking files from one program to another 3 times just to create a DVD. Instead I do all my editing in Adobe Premiere and just output the final edit as an AVI full quality file. I then import that file into Ulead DVD Movie Factory 3 which converts the file to DVD complient files, adds chapters and menus and then burns the files to a DVD disk (or VCD if required). I find this a lot easier, but the choice is yours.

    Mark.
     
  11. dood

    dood
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2000
    Messages:
    943
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Hobart
    Ratings:
    +38
    From what I gather, if the intention is to convert DV footage to DVD, then no matter how good the originial DV or AVI file, it will still be compressed (ie degraded) to MPEG2.

    If this is the case, would the final results be the same if the DV footage was recorded onto DVD using a DVD recorder, then played onto the PC, edited etc and finally burnt onto DVD?

    From the little that I have gleaned, it seems that there would be a difference if the file was captured on DVD RAM (VR) or DVD-R/RW (DVD video). What is the difference as far as PC editing is concerned? Is it possible for the PC to extract AVI files from these?

    I also seem to recall that if starting with an MPEG2 file, there would be even more compression when doing the final rendering.

    If the route I am suggesting would result in a significantly poorer final quality, then I will still stick to capture onto PC even though this will probably take much longer (recording on the DVD recorder is in realtime). The recorder can still be used to make quick DVDs from my DV footage with very little editing, authoring etc.

    Finally, if I can get good results starting with DVD RAM or -R/RW, then what software would I require?
     
  12. MarkE19

    MarkE19
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    17,109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Rainham Essex
    Ratings:
    +2,381
    Quality could be nearly as good, or it could be a fair bit poorer when recording to DVD-RAM/RW etc. There is no simple answer.
    The chances are that a if good quality (read that as probably more expensive :rolleyes: ) standalone DVD recorder is used then the MPEG or whatever codec is used to compress the video in the first place will do a fairly good job. I would think the chances are that a cheap recorder would have cheap & therefore not as good internal software resulting in lower quality recordings.
    Then it is down to the software on the PC. You will be working with highly compressed video so there are a fair few problems here. Some software will convert the files to AVI to work with that will result in further loss of quality. Other software will keep it in its current form, but due to the compression the edits will be far from frame accurate. The files will then be re-encoded before you can burn them to a DVD.

    So to make a long story short, there is no simple answer. There are so many if's & but's with the equipment & software used that the quality could go either way. IMHO there are less steps when everything is done on the PC that the chances are you will get better quality. A standalone recorder will at best give equal quality, but cost more money as you have an extra bit of hardware to buy.

    Mark.
     

Share This Page

Loading...