WHAT is THE best projector for around £10,000?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by resin, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. resin

    resin
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    ALL i want is the best picture, mostly for watching blu ray, dvds and ps3/xbox. I already use a SIM2 C3X lite. I DON'T understand all the stuff you guys talk about when it comes to gamma correction and calibration yet. Surely all this techno stuff is to get the best picture anyway. I know the C3X lite has 3 chips, but does this have a better picture than say a single chip 1080p projector? What about a 3 chip 1080p projector? ALL I WANT IS THE BEST PICTURE! Also a lot of people seem to have the jvc750? How good is this compared to my c3x lite? Is it because the jvc is cheaper ut just as good or better? Please be aware I do NOT understand the way you guys talk :mad:- I think you need a degree in science to understand you lot - my hat comes off to you all!:thumbsup:
     
  2. stevelup

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    If you've got that amount of money to throw at it, you would be better off engaging a professional to specify, install and calibrate a unit for you.

    I'd say you will get better results from a properly installed mid range projector than you would by just buying the most expensive thing money can buy and not installing it correctly.
     
  3. resin

    resin
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    Thanks! So how much better would my sim2 c3x lite be if I were to calibrate it properly - compared to just out of the box and play. (unfortunately I have white walls and a 102' screen):smashin:
     
  4. boksbox

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    If you had the money you'd probably be better off creating better viewing conditions,mind you I saw an Epson 5800 on display in Harrods yesterday in midly dimmed conditions it seemd to give a good account of itself even so.

    A projector like that and good viewing conditions would reap dividends
     
  5. Clarner

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    The Sim c3X is a terrific projector, even up against 1080p machines. I would definately spend a little time trying to get the best out of your current machine before spending £10k on a new unit. The most cost effective upgrade would be to darken the decor, white walls will kill the contrast of ANY projector, it doesn't have to be permanant, drapes, dark panels, furnishings etc will all help. The next step would be to get the PJ professionally calibrated (ISF certified). I think this is in the region of £250-300. Also it is a bad time to buy a new PJ with the £ being weak and new technology just around the corner, e.g. LED or Laser illumination instead of bulbs.
     
  6. jacko5

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    I think Clarner offers you good advice. Try room treatment. The first improvement you can make, and possibly the biggest, is to put up a temporary black sheet on the ceiling the width of the screen and extending out about five feet.
    When you have seen that improvement you should be encouraged to use your imagination in making further improvements to your viewing conditions.
    Finally get it professionally calibrated and the finished result will appear as though you had upgraded to a projector costing thousands of pounds more.
     
  7. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965
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    I recently upgraded from an AE2000 to the AE3000 and before making improvements to my room, aside from the useful lens memory feature and frame creation modes there was no improvment in the picture. If I had been a little more rash I may have bought the JVC HD750 myself having seen it demonstrated at PJ Hifi's excellent demo room.....which would have been a complete waste of money IMHO.

    I have mid grey walls and a white ceiling, so I'm a slight bit better than your all white room, but even so, as my room stands anything better than an AE2000 would be pretty much a waste of money, especially with a plain white screen. Using a more directional and/or grey screen may help in a less than ideal room.

    There is a solution, as implied by Clarner and Jacko5, which in my room is a removable black cloth 'tent' that I put up when I want to watch a film, plus a dark coloured throw on the sofa nearest the screen. This reduces room reflections and allows deeper blacks to appear on screen when there are light parts in the picture, rather than being washed out. Like all things AV it can be improved and I spent this weekend modifying my existing setup to make it 2 metres deep instead of 1 metre. I'm still waiting for some denser black material to turn up, but the rest is ready when it comes. There are some pictures in 'My Setup thread' in my signature below and I'll be updating soon with the revised (hopefully improved :D) setup.

    I've recently done a calibration using an eye-one probe and some free software (HFCR). It's not going to be as good as a professional due to inexperience and cheaper equipment, but the picture is still an improvement. I may well consider a 'pro' calibration myself once I sort my room out.

    I suppose my main point being that you can't just throw money at the problem and expect a good result. You may have to improve other aspects first, then deceide if you are happy with the results; if not then deceide what it is you don't like about the PQ and come back here for other suggestions.
     
  8. Pecker

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    On the resolution front, you can answer that yourself. Sit where you usually watch your films, look at the screen, can you see the individual pixels or any line structure, etc.

    If you can't, then get your Sim calibrated, and look at how you can improve your room & viewing environment.

    If you can see the pixels (and you might want to get a demo on a 1080p model - any model - to compare), then you might want to think about replacing your PJ.

    Hopefully it's the former, because the 1080p model of the Sim is...not cheap.

    Steve W
     
  9. Avi

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    Hi Resin

    As with most things AV a single demand like the above often turns out to be a bit more complicated. I think the advice that others have given about room treatment to create an ideal (or going that way) viewing environment is sound and IMO can provide significant jump in perceived performance.

    One aspect the above can't address is video processing in the PJ itself. IIRC the C3X lite doesn't accept at 1080p/24 signal and processes at 8 bits. That put simply means you're got going to get the best in terms of motion with Blu-ray or even NTSC film DVD for starters. Also the image may be more prone to artefacts such as contouring, posterization etc due to the 8 bit calculation limitation. One thing that may help is to put a video processor in the chain that can do the heavy lifting and then send a better signal to the PJ and avoid most of the PJ's processing. There may still be some limitations based on the PJ but IIRC (do double check though) the lite will accept a 1080p/48 (or 1080p/24PsF) and this should improve motion for starters with Blu-ray/NTSC film material. Also some VP's will allow your calibrator to potentially achieve more ideal colour, grayscale etc that may/may not be possible through the PJ alone. This may breath more life into you PJ for a much less than £10k and can be used with future PJ's if you do upgrade.

    AVI
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2009
  10. NonPayingMember

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    The advice to get a professional in is very sound here. Even if you could buy a better projector for 10k than the C3X-Lite (which IMO you can't) any gains in contrast and black levels will never be realised until you treat the room and find a suitably matched screen for it. If you are going for a full room treatment I would advise you get professional advice in and treat any acoustic anomalies while you are at it!

    My advice would be to take care of the above first. With blacked out room (or even just better ambient lighting than you have) you will gain deeper black levels, with more shadow detail, and more overall contrast to the image. This can basically be translated as more "punch" to the picture.

    The next step for me would be a Lumagen Radiance video processor. The main purpose of this would be to improve your video deinterlacing and scaling performance. SD will need to be upscaled correctly, equally as 1080 HD will need to be downscaled. Better scaling will give an image with less artefacts as will better deinterlacing of your SD 480i/576i material and HD 1080i material (esp sport and HDTV video material). Another big feature would be the frame rate conversion of 480i and 1080i film into 24p frames. The Lumagen can fiddle these signal around to generate a 720p48 output which the C3X happilly accepts, giving you baby smooth Blu-Ray and R1 DVD playback.

    The VP goes on to give you further benefits, most notably in the colour management and greyscale departments. A full primary and secondary colour management system will ensure the most accurate possible colour, and Lumagen's parametric greyscale tracking will ensure the best black levels and details available given to maximise the physical potential of the projector and the room. Including other smaller features such as genlock (perfectly smooth frame reproduction), y/c delay adjustment (crisp colour accuracy), noise reduction etc your calibrator can then take a very, very good projector such as the C3X and through the tools in the Lumagen and the better room conditions give you an incredibly hard to beat image.
     
  11. Pecker

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    And all that should come in at, less than £2k at a guess, Liam?

    Far cheaper than a new £10k projector.

    Steve W
     
  12. NonPayingMember

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    £4k for the Lumagen, £400 for the calibration, £?? budget for blacking out the room. £2-3k for a new screen if there isn't a decent one already. Room acoustics would be further costs, £2k for a decent room kit, £1k for consultation and calibration over a couple of visits. Maybe more. Point is just throwing money at another projector will probably gain zero improvements (except more in the pocket of the lucky dealer who convinces the OP that it will - probably on the basis of it having more pixels :rolleyes: ).
     
  13. Avi

    Avi
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    I can't answer for Liam but I would guess it will cost more than £2k if going the Radiance route.

    AVI
     
  14. resin

    resin
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    YOU GUYS ARE TOO GOOD! Anyway - bloody hell, I never new there was this much you could do to improve pq! Also, I haven't actually got £10,000 to spend on a projector, I wanted to see if my SIM2 C3X LITE could be knocked off the charts by a better projector, which I would have then sold the SIM2. It took me a YEAR to save for the SIM2 in the first place, so money isn't easy to just "get".
    Which now brings me to the information given, I am going to do a lot of homework into darkening my room. The next step is to get a processor. The lumagen radiance is very expensive, but if it's necessary, then I must invest! Anyone know the cheapest price, or shall I wait for one to pop up on the classifieds? Why is this processor the best option, I don't doubt you experts, I guess I just need to know what quality of picture you get with it. - (compared to others on the market)
    I was thinking of upgrading eventually to a SIM2 3 CHIP 1080P. What difference could this make? Could I still use the processor with this kind of upgrade? I await your knowledge.....:smashin::smashin::smashin:
     
  15. patt

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    Hi i was thinking of upgrading my HD80 as i do most years,but sitting in my living room i was thinking about contrast so went out and spent £100 on black curtains and a black blind (see picture) now the contrast has improved
    and i am very happy,it looks like i have change my projector the difference is unbelievable, now keeping the HD80 for 1 more year at lest,o and spent my upgrade money on a new amp and blu-ray player so all worked very well


    http://www.avforums.com/forums/atta...889290-maximising-image-contrast-img_1112.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2009
  16. jacko5

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    That's great, now work out a simple way to rig up a black cloth on the ceiling, about 5 feet out from the screen, which can easily be put up and taken down again after use. Throw a piece of black cloth on that light shiny floor in front of the screen and the picture will look better still.
     
  17. NonPayingMember

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    Most Lumagen dealers will arrange a local demo for you, it's really not something you can try and find cheap in the classifieds and hope you are setting it up at it's best. IMO the common theme here is that you should get someone in to show you a Lumagen on your own system, make recommendations for audio and visual changes/improvements you could make, and then when you have done them come back and calibrate the various parts of the system for you. I appreciate there is always the element of fun doing it yourself and of course trying to get the best prices you can when it comes down to it, but there's no replacing experience and by the sounds of it there is a lot more to gain with your C3X.

    On the 1080 subject, the C3X-1080 is better in contrast, brightness and colour terms because the 1080 DC4 chip is quite a bit better than the 720p DC3 in your C3X-Lite. And of course it has over twice the amount of pixels which will mean no downscaling of HD 1080 material and depending on your viewing distance and screen size a sharper image. 23 grand though, lotta money, and it will still need decent screen, video processor, and blacked out room!!!
     
  18. IWC Dopplel

    IWC Dopplel
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    The biggest upgrade to my system was in room light control (lots of velvet) it can be tastefully done. Without the work here my measured contrast was less than 10% of the potential ........

    I am not joking !
     

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