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Question What is needed for DTS HD MASTER AUDIO

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
(I am looking at a Sony STR-DN1080 MULTI CHANNEL AV RECEIVER)

I was told in the youtube comment section, DTS HD MASTER AUDIO can only be sent via eARC.

eARC is relatively new I believe?

So how come my Avatar Blu Ray, which is 10 years old, has DTS HD MASTER AUDIO written on it, how were people listening to it without eARC?
 

greentg

Active Member
(I am looking at a Sony STR-DN1080 MULTI CHANNEL AV RECEIVER)

I was told in the youtube comment section, DTS HD MASTER AUDIO can only be sent via eARC.

eARC is relatively new I believe?

So how come my Avatar Blu Ray, which is 10 years old, has DTS HD MASTER AUDIO written on it, how were people listening to it without eARC?
Plugging your Blu-Ray player directly into the STR-DN1080 will allow you to replay disks with DTS HD Master Audio soundtracks and that has always been the case for AV amps which support that format.

However, if you were to plug your Blu-Ray player directly into your TV and connect it to an AV amp via ARC, that would only allow you to pass "lossy" DTS or Dolby 5.1 formats. Some newer TVs however, now support "Enhanced Audio Return Channel", or eArc as it's more commonly known. This does allow the passthrough of both Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio (with the exception of the 2020 LGs, which no longer have a DTS licence). However, my recommendation would be to plug everything into your AV amp and just output video from that to the TV.
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
I think the YouTube commenter meant that you can't transmit DTS HD MA from TV to AVR via standard ARC, but you can by enhanced ARC.

You can also transmit it via connecting the source device direct to the AVR and not using ARC at all.
 

Jamie

Distinguished Member
EArc and ARC is for carrying audio from either the TVs Internal tuners and apps or any devices connected directly to the TV.

If you connect a device to the receiver it will process the audio and pass the video to the TV from the AVRs HDMI output, in this case ARC is irrelevant.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
DTS HD MA is one of the main HD audio streams along with Dolby TrueHD that most discs will have as their main HD audio track. You can also get DTS:X as part of the DTS package and Atmos will be metadata attached to the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack. You will be access both by having your PS connected directly to a receiver via HDMI.

You would need eARC to be able to transmit HD audio of any description back from the TV to a receiver but both TV and receiver needs to have this ability.

If you have any intentions of going for a 5.1.2 speaker layout, the maximum available with the Sony, then there are limitations imposed by Sony on how DTS:X and the upmixing mode of DTS Neural can be portrayed by certain speaker positions. No other manufacturer has these problems and is something to bear in mind.
 

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
Thanks everyone.
If I have understood correctly, I could even get Atmos by plugging my Apple4ktv direct into my amp for sound, and then connecting my amp to the tv for picture.
This would be great, as when researching I thought I could only get full Atmos by having to purchase a new tv with earc.
 

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
If you have any intentions of going for a 5.1.2 speaker layout, the maximum available with the Sony, then there are limitations imposed by Sony on how DTS:X and the upmixing mode of DTS Neural can be portrayed by certain speaker positions. No other manufacturer has these problems and is something to bear in mind.

Yes a 5.1.2 layout is most likely. With the speakers pointing up, rather than down from the ceiling. Would this layout be an issue with the Sony?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Yes a 5.1.2 layout is most likely. With the speakers pointing up, rather than down from the ceiling. Would this layout be an issue with the Sony?
Yes. If watching an Atmos soundtrack they will be fine set at Front Dolby (FD) but need to be set to Front Height (FH) for any DTS:X content or wanting to use DTS:Neural. Sony are the only manufacturer that this is a problem for. Denon's settings are easy, they are set at Dolby Enabled and in that configuration work very well. It's how I have my upfiring speakers configured on my Denon.

For that reason I will always recommend another make of receiver for someone wanting a 5.1.2. It's unlikely Sony will resolve an issue with a unit that is now three years old.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
The Sony is a great sounding AVR, I have one, with the right speakers it performs well above it's price.

However, as gibbsy says above, there are issues with speaker placement and certain sound formats, for that reason, if I had to replace mine, I'd be looking at a Denon.

The Sony, for a 3yr old model as well, is no bargain anymore. It's pretty much the same price as when it was released.
 

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
Thanks again all.

I have been going rather mad looking into all this,
I would just like to Brain Dump some things from my mind, if anyone is able to correct me, or advise me, its really appreciated -

If I have an amp, capable of atmos, but only hooked up a 5.1 speaker set,
if I watched an Atmos Movie on my appletv4k, it would NOT downgrade to Dolby True HD or DTS like you would think, as apple does atmos via regular Dolby Digital instead, is this statement correct?

I was pondering getting a New Amp & speakers to get the best from my Appletv4k, but If I cant even get DOLBY TRUE HD or DTS via it, would my old banger of a system suffice?

My current surround sound system is JVC TH-L1 that I have had for Donkeys Years
Screen Shot 2020-11-08 at 09.59.59.png

looking at those logo's above, I had assumed the DD Dolby Digital is for the surround sound, & the Pro Logic 2, means it ALSO has the ability to trick stereo into surround sound. have I got this right?

OR does that logo mean it can ONLY push stereo into Surround (& has no real dolby surround).

If it is actually real surround sound, then would it be worth me buying a new Amp/home theatre set up, when (if I am correct) my current one can get the exact same audio quality!?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The Apple TV uses Dolby MAT to allow it to output Atmos metatadata. This means that the metadata is output in conjunction with multichannel PCM as opposed to the DD+ encoded audio. The ATV decodes the DD+ element of the audio package and then uses Dolby MAT to enable it to include the Atmos metadata with this PCM data:

Dolby Atmos in Dolby MAT
The Dolby Metadata-enhanced Audio Transmission (Dolby MAT) encoder resides in a Blu-ray player to pack the variable bit-rate Dolby TrueHD bitstreams for transmission over the fixed bit-rate HDMI connections. A MAT decoder is subsequently employed in an AVR to unpack the Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. With the introduction of Dolby Atmos, we have expanded this technology to support encoding of Dolby Atmos content as lossless pulse-code modulation (PCM) audio.
A key benefit of Dolby MAT 2.0 is that Dolby Atmos object-based audio can be live encoded and transmitted from a source device with limited latency and processing complexity. Among the possible sources are broadcast set-top boxes, PCs, and game consoles. The Dolby MAT 2.0 decoder in an AVR outputs the object-based audio and its metadata for further processing. The Dolby MAT 2.0 container is scalable and leverages the full potential of the HDMI audio pipeline.
Note that the above is ilso the same in instances where the Atmos metadata is being delivered to the source device in conjunction with Dolby Digital PLus (DD+). THis would be the case in association with all streaming serivices such as Netflix. None of the streaming services use TrueHD.

If you'd not at least a 5.1.2 speaker configuration and if not using Dolby Virtual Height processing, you'd not be able to portray Atmos. THe AV receiver would simply ignore the Atmos metadata and would simply revert to the Dolby TrueHD, the DD+ or the PCM audio in the case of instances where the source is using Dolby MAT.

Any Atmos sourced via an Apple TV will have been derrived by drrvices that stream it as metadata includes within SS+ encoded audio. The ATV decode the DD+ and streams it as multichannel PCM along with the Atmos metadata. THe ATV has no ability to decode or handle TRueHD or DTS-HD Mastewr Audio.

Dolby Surround Upmixing is processing and not an audio format. DSU basically supersedes Dolby Pro Logic and will create pseudo channels for those that are not present within the discrete audio source. In instances where the speakers do not conform with what is required for Atmos, DSU will still create pseudo channels for the speakers that are present, but lacking discrete channels within the source. If you'd an Atmos setup then DSU would create a pseudo representation of Atmos even if the source is lacking any Atmos metadata. You will however still needed the associated additional Atmos speakers in order to use DSU to create this effect. Note that DSU is not included on AV receiver's that aren't Atmos enabled and you'd still get Pro LOgic on such systems.

Dolby Surround upmixer
If you invest in building a Dolby Atmos home theater, you want to get full use of it, even if the content you’re playing isn’t mixed in Dolby Atmos. That’s where the Dolby Surround upmixer plays a big role.
When enabled, the Dolby Surround upmixer expands the audio of legacy channel-based content to take advantage of your entire system, including overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers. The Dolby Surround upmixer processes and expands the channel-based soundtrack to create a highly accurate rendering of the environment in the movie while simultaneously honoring and maintaining the artist’s intent for the mix.
Unlike previous wideband upmixing technologies, the Dolby Surround upmixer operates in the frequency domain, decoding and processing multiple perceptually spaced frequency bands for a fine- grained analysis of the source signal. Dolby Surround upmixer individually steers these frequency bands, producing a highly precise surround-sound field with enhanced spacious ambience. The Dolby Surround upmixer is included in the Dolby Atmos technology bundle and replaces the Dolby Pro Logic II family of upmixers, offering greater flexibility and superior audio performance.
To maintain the frontal spatial audio image, the upmixer will not send upmixed audio to speakers that are located between the left, center, and right speakers or to the left wide and right wide speakers. Additionally, upmixed audio is not sent to the center surround speaker. Spatial imaging is complemented through the use of overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers in these cases.
 
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Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
I’m a simple guy, people like myself need an answer in laymen’s terms. I am still none the wiser if my current JVC surround sound system is worth upgrading to a new Amp and speakers.
Apart from Atmos, am I actually missing anything with my current JVC set up?

Thanks.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
What content are you going to be watching?

If you're just streaming from Netflix, Prime etc then you're going to get basic DD5.1 which isn't that far off DD+, you're just not getting Atmos. Steaming apps don't use HD audio Atmos like discs do. They don't use DTS-HD MA and TrueHD.

If you have Bluray and UHD discs then you're missing out on all those HD audio formats and Atmos.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
If you want the ability to decode HD audio formats and the ability to portray Atmos then yes, invest in a more recent AV receiver and the appropriate speakers. If simply wanting access to SD 5.1 formats then stick with what you've got. Your current setup has no ability to access or portray Atmos. It cannot decode HD formats such asTrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio, but may allow you to decode these formats in the source device and stream them to your current setup via HDMI if your current setup has HDMI inputs rgat fascilitate access to HDMI audio? If not then you'd be restricted to SF formatted Dolby Digital or DTS and no more than just 2 channels of PCM data.

Is the JVC setup you have an all in one player? If so then it more than likely has no HDMI inputs and will be limited to the audio it can decode as accessed onboard the discs it plays?
 

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
the JCV surround sound system is just an amp. it has no built in blu ray player.

Lets say I wanted to watch a Movie I purchased on itunes, I do it like this:
AppleTv4k > Tv > JVC via Optical Cable.

Surround sound works & comes out of my speakers.
(this audio is just classed as standard Dolby Digital right...?)

I was considering getting rid of this old JVC, & upgrading to a new Amp, that is capable of passing Better quality audio signals, such as TrueHD or DTS-HD.

So Imagine my new set like this:
AppleTv4k > New Amp > TV
all via HDMI.

Would I actually get those better signals I was hoping for?

Thanks Guys. Much appreciated.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
No.

Because the content you purchased is DD+ with, sometimes an Atmos track.
All streaming content is DD+ with Atmos at best.

TrueHD (with or without Atmos), DTS-HD MA, DTS-X are only available on discs.
 

Ace Of Wands

Novice Member
Thank you so much.

So I guess the Only reason for me to upgrade would be if I had a 4K player instead.

4k player > new amp with 5.1 > tv

So playing a 4K disc (with or without Atmos) would get me that TrueHd / DTS hd master that I wanted.

Thank you.
 

Sloppy Bob

Distinguished Member
So I guess the Only reason for me to upgrade would be if I had a 4K player instead.

Yes, or like many now, you rip your content to a hard drive and stream it locally rather than off the internet.

Doing this with your ATV would still give you the HD audio formats but you'd lose the Atmos as ATV can't (AFAIK, that might have changed?) do Atmos from local streaming.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The Apple TV has no ability to handle HD audio formats, but can handle DD+ and can output Atmos metadata that is streamed to the ATV packaged within DD+ encoded audio. Streaming services such as Netflix, Amazon, Disney+ and Aplle TV+ encode their audio as DD+ and do include Atmos with some of their content. Note that DD+ encoded audio is inclusive of a standard DD core to ensure backward co[atability with older devices that may lack the ability to handle and or decode DD+ encoded audio.

THe Apple TV has no ability to convey HD formatted audio rtegardless of whether you are accessing it via a streaming service or using the ATV as a media player. Neither will it bitstream DD+ if wanting to output Atmos. THe ATV would use Dolby MAT and output the Atmos metadata along with multichannel PCM derrived from decoding the DD+ encoded audiothe Atmos metadata is packaged with.

Blu-ray and UHD disc titles will more often than not include HD formaated audio such as TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio. Some titles may also include Atmos in association with their TrueHD encoded audio or DTS:X in association with their DTS-HD Master Audio soundtracks.
 
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