What is HDR?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by Mark Hodgkinson, Jan 8, 2015.

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    1. Mark Hodgkinson

      Mark Hodgkinson
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      Last edited: Jan 8, 2015
    2. JokerJack

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      great post.. i take it we will start seeing HDR projectors now as well? I am in the middle of building a dedicated room and was thinking of buying a projector as a stop gap for a year to see if 4k does indeed gain any ground. Do you think i should wait another couple of months from buying a projector, new projectors normally get announced in September don't they?
       
    3. Trollslayer

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      I would be happy with 1080p as long as it has HDR.
      Something that has been the poor relation for a long time.
      Thanks mark.
       
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    4. NickInWiltshire

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      Excellent overview of the issue - many thanks. Perhaps it is not a surprise that HDR and wide colour gamuts are getting inextricably linked. Basically once you decide you want to use more than 8 bits per colour, you have to decide how to apportion them, and that means reviewing the coordinate system (colour gamut), total dynamic range (HDR) and the increments (colour accuracy.)

      In hindsight it looks like the manufacturers jumped the gun by releasing "4k" sets before any of the details of UHD had really been worked out. Even now I am not sure exactly how stable all of these features are yet. But it sounds as if the UHD blu-ray spec will force some stability onto proceedings.

      It does look as if OLED will not be able to fully meet the HDR and gamut - at least initially. But it also sounds as if maybe very few TVs will fully meet the range available and they will all be mapping it down to whatever they are capable of. I somehow doubt whether most people will want their HDR turned up to the full 1000 nits (or whatever) anyway as it could be rather uncomfortable.
       
    5. raoulx

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      Great read guys as ever. I always love and hate new technology. I want it all but can never get the top specced stuff. But supposed I'm in the boat a lot of us are in!

      I need a new TV but it keeps making me question "should I wait or not?" Dammit! :p
       
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    6. sheggsl

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      Displays utlising HDR have been some of the most impressive I have seen thus far at the show, even more eye grabbing than LG's 4k OLED. The Hicense implementation of HDR using Dolby Vision showing clips of "The Great Gatsby' was simply breathtaking as was Panasonic's version displaying clips of "A million ways to die in the west". Personally I was underwhelmed by LG 4K OLED range primarily because of the display content, it was very selective and mostly video based, beats me why anyone will go to the lengths of creating such a promising technology only to display Pencils and Fruits!!!
       
    7. Jules

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      Maybe I've missed something, but an LCD set with HDR is still not going to deliver a true black like OLED can.
      I understand the benefits of more subtle gradations with HDR, but below a certain luminance surely nothing can touch OLED.
      And given that most AV fans watch movies in the dark, a true black level is massively more important than anything HDR can deliver.

      Sorry, I just don't get it and really believe this a questionable tactic by Samsung and co to try and stop LG from taking over the TV market with OLED.

      I personally have little interest in HDR (even on OLED), I have little interest in 4K (except for production where a 4K capture can be reframed to 1080p... reducing the need for a 2nd camera), but I am very interested in being able to watch a TV in a bat cave from any angle without suffering milky washed out images and poor shadow details.
       
    8. Steve Withers

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      Our current standard (Rec.709, 100nits, D65, 2.2 gamma, 8-bit) goes back about 50 years and clearly technology has moved on considerably since then. It looks as though the new standard for Ultra HD will be P3/DCI, 1000nits, D65, BT.1886 gamma and 10-bit video, which has to be good news for the enthusiast. The reality is that most people don't want watch TV in a pitch black room and in fact I'd always recommend some biased lighting behind the TV for a more comfortable viewing experience at night. As far projectors are concerned, the idea of HDR doesn't necessarily apply but all the other elements of the new standard would result in a much improved viewing experience.
       
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    9. MikeTVMikeTV

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      Thanks for explaining it all but its all a bit of a fiasco really.

      First gen 4K TV no HEVC decoding
      Second Gen not HDR

      No point buying a third gen as its bound to be missing something else.

      One minute OLED is the future, now its possible that its not.

      All a pile of nonsense really, Samsung throwing their weight around it seems as they are behind on the OLED front.

      I need to recheck the reviews of last year's 4k as wasn't one of them insanely bright at about 300nits????

      So 1000 is crazy and 500 plenty.
       
    10. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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      Just to clarify, the overall image won't be at 1000nits, just highlights within the image. And once the standards have all been agreed this year, then we should be able to buy UHD TVs without worrying about redundancy.
       
    11. vism

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      Mark, I know you said in the article that HDR and wide colour were separate but you then went on to confuse the issue by stating QD will help brightness. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't.
      Also, you are down on OLED for only 500 nits but where are the LCDs that do more than that?
      I really don't understand what issue the AV staff have with OLED, it's like you really want it to fail while at the same time you keep singing it's praises.
      OLED can do wider colourspace and HDR, why can't you just give LG time to bring something out?

      I believe that HDR and rec2020 will require 12 bits to avoid banding as you double the required values for HDR (If Dolby's figure are right) and then the same for rec2020.

      EDIT: And HDR doesn't improve black levels. Black is black.
       
    12. mikelj

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      Steve, I though the UHD Blu-ray specs were for rec.2020 not P3/DCI. Is this still the case.

      Interestingly, I was reading that a company called Nanosys have demonstrated that it is possible using their quantum dot film to produce and LED LCD that covers over 97% of rec.2020.
       
    13. mikelj

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      That's my feeling, however I am now slightly worried over OLED's future. An LED LCD with HDR would probably have the effect of subjectively improving the perceived black levels, just by the nature of the (much) higher peak luminance parts of the picture. Furthermore, we're drawn to bright images (Dolby even tout their research on this when presenting Dolby Vision and just look at the video of Steve's reaction to Samsung's SUTV:)), so I can't help wondering whether HDR TVs would be perceived as producing a superior picture (especially if no OLED happened to be next to it just to show how washed out pictures look when you can't do black).
       
    14. Canti1982

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      Led lcd won't go as dark but there will be a massive perceived dynamic range making them appear darker than they really are. Try looking at the sun from behind a tree, you won't see much shadow detail in the branches just black. Yes an extreme example but the principle is the same.

      You probably won't see too much difference between the two unless it's an evenly dark scene where the oled will have the edge.

      Going to be interesting how things go from here.

      Edit: oops you beat me to it :D
       
      Last edited: Jan 8, 2015
    15. mikelj

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      Part of what makes a good picture though is the ability to reproduce the shadow detail that is present in the source. I'm not sure a massive perceived dynamic range would actually help with this.
       
    16. vism

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      Indeed, brightness usually makes the subtle shadow stuff disappear.
       
    17. vism

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      Just watched the OLED HDR vid on cnet and they say it produces 800 nits of light output. Not unreasonable to expect the full 1000 by production time.
       
    18. Canti1982

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      That's kind of my point, you just won't see it as the bright parts of the image will be the dominant factor.

      Obviously I would rather have both (plasma owner).

      I can see a brightness numbers war ahead.
       
    19. V F

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      Then Voldemorts army will still look poor. All low dark content.
       
    20. Canti1982

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    21. mikelj

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      Ah, I misunderstood and thought you where an advocate of QD LCD (plasma owner too).

      Yes, HDR plays into LCD's strengths (look how bright it goes, never mind the black levels).
       
    22. 1080 jawbreaker

      1080 jawbreaker
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      im betting on hdr br 4k from the get go with the hardware/software players converting the video for backwards compatabilty.
      a hdr image can be shoe horned onto a none hdr display. I used to mess about with hdr photography, take a correctly exposed image, an under exposed image and an over exposed image then merge the details from all 3 to produce 1 image with no blownout highlights or crushed shadows.
       
    23. vism

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      Although Netflix will get there first.
       
    24. davidcrofter

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      In that video comparison - all of the detail is being completely lost in the lighter parts of the picture. Of course if they didn't have the comparison you probably wouldn't know that there was any detail to be lost in the first place.

      Who's to say how accurate the demo's at CES actually were??
       
    25. mikelj

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      You know, I thought that myself but I wondered about the wisdom of commenting on the accuracy of a recording of a TV viewed on my laptop.

      However, that said, the HDR TV on the left just looked wrong, like a poorly set up TV.
       
    26. Tim Ashdown

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      Agree with this and find it quite frustrating that people are talking about LCD with HDR potentially killing off OLED before it gets off the ground. I think we can all agree that if we could have a 4k HDR LED or a 4k HDR OLED, there is nobody in the know that would choose the LED.
      The AVF guys must also be aware of the LG HDR OLED with 800 nits in the CNET vid, so why are people talking like OLED will be a compromise and do we need it if we've got Quantum Dot.

      AV enthusiasts should not be contemplating a future where LCD is the only option. No disrespect guys, but do us a favour, the next time Samsung decide to show off their latest and greatest LCD TV, maybe they should not see videos of excited enthusiasts. You should be down on them and get the point across that the OLED train has left the station and they need to get on board... As enthusiasts we should be giving them the impression that only the best will do! They've shown they can also do OLED and don't tell me they haven't got the money to throw at it to make it work somehow. Every major manufacturer should have an OLED in their range this year. No good can come from OLED dying off for AVF members.
       
    27. Canti1982

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      Little harsh, I don't think these guys are really saying they want an LCD only future. I think what they are saying is that given this new tech and the difficulty in producing OLED panels the cheaper LCD/LED panels with HDR might be what the mass public go for. Price always plays an important factor, just look at what most people buy, AVforums members are certainly not the majority.

      Until a few are out it will be quite hard to judge just how good any of them are in reality.

      Agree, the Dolby Vision screen looks very blown out, probably just to demonstrate a difference, I doubt that's what the directors are going to want to go with.

      It does sound like you will be able to enable and disable the HDR effect, guessing they will make it backwardly compatible with standard 4k sets.
       
    28. Tim Ashdown

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      Harsh maybe. Not suggesting for a minute that they want an LCD only future, in fact we all know they don't. Perhaps an exaggeration, but I just don't think Samsung need any encouragement from people that want better than LCD and it came across that way to me.

      Samsung are a major force (the major force) in this sector and they have the potential to hinder the long term progress of TV, for their own self gain. Not naïve enough to think LG are doing OLED for the good of the people by the way:D.
       
    29. MikeTVMikeTV

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      Well hopefully they get it sorted out, I was hoping to invest in some 4K goodness now the prices have really dropped, however I shall wait as I don't want to find out my new purchase won't even last 3years as it doesn't have half the features.
       
    30. 1080 jawbreaker

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      the image on the left looks artificially ramped up. HDR can be converted into bt709 and look a damn sight better than that demo. They must take us for morons.
       

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