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What is an ALIS screen?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by mcav, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. mcav

    mcav
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    I am going to get the Hitatchi PD7200 from richer sounds soon (I think they are offering it at a good price - but will be happy to hear otherwise)

    But I've seen some people on this forum say it's not a true HD panel, and others say it is an HD panel.

    It has HDMI so I thought it must be a fully HD panel.

    The native resulution is also very high - so surely that also makes it an HD panel.

    Can anyone tell me why people are saying "I want a real HD panel and not an ALIS panel"

    Cheers
     
  2. hornydragon

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    try a search for "ALIS" basically older ALIS technology use 1024X512 drives units feed 1024x1024 pixels it is sort of interlaced but not quite originally developed for commercial displays to make a more Pixel dense, brighter longer life Panel, arived before the 1024x768 42"W XGA panels and has advantages in some applications, in my opinion Home cinema isnt an area ALIS is ideal for, for more tech info see the Hitachi website (there are links all over the place, and if you have a search you will see that Nick UK and my self have debated ALIS a few times)


    PS thanks mep
     
  3. Mep

    Mep
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    and so has Nick_UK :)
     
  4. Enquirer

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    The search feature works really well
     
  5. mcav

    mcav
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    Oooh aren't some people sacry around here.

    Tell you what - I'll just not bother with the forum and I'll google everything from now on.

    :rolleyes:

    Anyway - sorry to waste all you're times by not wading through the MILLIONS of posts which had the word ALIS in them just to have a simple question answered. anyway - I've decided I'm going to go with the pioneer XDA now - anyone got an opinion on this or shoudl I just search that as well???? :devil:
     
  6. Mep

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    Horny answered your question! :rolleyes:
     
  7. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    do you mean XDE????????? great plasma if yu dont watch TV..............................
     
  8. Enquirer

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    Sorry Si i thought you had already clued up yourself when you bought your PW7.
    Your not correct about the MILLIONS of ALiS posts but i agree there are many. :D

    here are a linkt hat explain ALiS Technology.



    http://edevice.fujitsu.com/fhp/index_e.html

    http://edevice.fujitsu.com/fhp/pdp/fhp_pdp/e-pdp-bt201.html
     
  9. LCDC

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  10. Enquirer

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    AFAIK my link info applies to that plasma

    Whhoowww I'm not getting into that again :D
    Just stating the facts.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Not quite. The plasma screen does address each of the 1024 lines, as seperate lines with a different piece of information for each. It just only has 512 driving circuits to do it with, so the 512 uniquely addresses the 1024 lines, quicker than the eye is meant to notice some trickery is going on. So 1080i could be downscaled to 1024 lines, each showing the maximum amount of information possible. (the question is how Hitachi turns 720 or 1080 into 1024, usually by lopping a lump off!)
     
  12. Cable Monkey

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    Does it lop off any more than a CRT's overscan adjustment (as an example)?
     
  13. hornydragon

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    but they have no adjustment unlike a CRT.... ALso if the original poster owns a panny then i think rushing into an ALIS or pio screen could be a shock to the system
     
  14. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Hitachi Plasma Dept Brainstorm session:

    "Right how are we gonna shrink this 1080 sized thing into this 1024 sized thing?"

    "Well we could use the scaling circuits to interpolate the blah blah blah blah blah technobabble blah"

    "Ah sod it. Too difficult. Get me hacksaw - we're about to lose 56 lines and hope no-one notices..."

    "Ah - good idea. We can just tell 'em it's useless blanking information! Worked with those 540p projectors...."
     
  15. nheather

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    This is an interesting statment. I'm clear on 1080i being downscaled to 1024 by lopping off 56 lines (quite a good match), but I was surprised by the suggested loss of info with a 720P.

    I had assumed that this would be upscaled to 1024 by adding 304 extra lines using extrapolation, interpolation algorithms (or what ever). But this statement hints at something like lopping off 208 lines to convert to 512 and then doubling (i.e. display as both odd and even lines).

    This would mean that a lot of picture information is lost. Is this correct?

    Also, is it a general rule that whenever a device can source 720P it can also output 1080i? What are Sky and BlueRay proposing?

    Also how does a 1080i and 720P picture compare. I accept that 720P has no flicker but the 1080i has more info. But that is all technical specifications - how do they compare in real life to the human eye.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
     
  16. Liam @ Prog AV

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    No it doesn't overscan off almost a third of the image!!! People would notice (or would they...). Some Hitachi's do overscan quite badly though, not an ALIS related thing (in fact neither is the 1080 -> 1024 really) more how the manufacturer has decided rescaling should be done. I don't have a lot of experience with Hitachi's (once was enough) so I couldn't tell you how much the 720 is overscanned. Probably a good 5% all round.

    1080i does look sharper/detailed over 720p, but I don't like the artefacting caused by bad deinterlacing at display end. The worst thing is motion (fast camera pans, sports, action movies etc) which even really good processing can be stumped by. The image is recorded by doing the odd lines, then even, then onto the next frame again doing odd and even. So long as little happens between recording odd and even lines, the image will be ok. But with these fast pans some objects (e.g. a tennis ball) will have moved between lines, when they are put back together again they don't match up perfectly (half the ball could want to be 1cm further to the left than the other). There's plenty of info on the net about this, mainly US sites, that will probably have better descriptions than I could muster!!
     
  17. efendi

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    Well the Hitachi 1024x1024 Alis panels are considered as better suited to 1080i HD - firstly they are "interlaced" panels anyway and secondly they have 1024 physical lines, which is VERY close to 1080.
    What seems to me as strange is why people still bother about 1080/1024 conversion, or, more specifically, about cropping these 28 lines of the picture from the top and the bottom. Considering we are (mainly) interested in watching HD movies (aren't we?) and the situation will be the same as on normal DVDs, we'll end up having these annoying black bars top and bottom of our screens anyway so what is so important in these few lines? :confused:
    Regarding the 720/1024 conversion, I'd bet if somebody would be so kind and make the pattern with 720 lines, but only each other visible and it'd be then displayed on an HD Alis panel, we'll see ALL lines, not only 512 of them, just doubled... It's just speculation, but... In the contrary, IMHO much more info is lost on progressive 720p panels when 1080i signal is displayed.

    Sorry for my English, though ;) ,

    Petr
     
  18. Liam @ Prog AV

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    I think you'll find the Hitachi deinterlaces the 1080i, crops it, then reinterlaces it for ALIS display!! Can't be sure on that though. Anyone with a Hitach and a scaler or PC capable of sending out 1080i and some test patterns to see???
     
  19. efendi

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    You could be right, of course... Who knows? But these operations would be probably hard to confirm (except the evident cropping)...

    Petr
     
  20. mcav

    mcav
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    Don't talk to me about the Panny PW7 - talk about not having a good experience with that..... Panny PW7 and HD clearly do not go - not in the way I wanted it to anyway.

    Think it's going to be the pioneer XDE for me (sorry was in phone mode when I wrote XDA)

    And I wasn't going off at anyone - it's just perhaps people should just be happy to help someone out instead of going "It's been done before!!"

    Don't want to turn into a forum like that do we?

    Anyone know of a better price than AV sales? they seem awfully good.
     
  21. hornydragon

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    there are probably better prices but i doubt you will find better service.....what price will you put on that service? thats up to you mate and your not the only one who has been spinning around with all of this its alot easier to be uninformed walk into curries spend £3k and walk out..................
     
  22. MAW

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    efendi, don't forget the Hitachi lops off a proportionate amount of the horizontal info too, the black bars are smaller, yes, but it's overscanning the H dimension to match. It's either that or an aspect ratio distortion.
     
  23. efendi

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    Well, Maw, you are right with this... Sorry I forgot... I'd be interesting however what in reality would be resulting in better picture - to rescale the image from 1080 to 1024 or to simply crop these few lines, even for the price of slight horizontal overscan. Have somebody tried this? BTW, every 42" plasma does horizontal rescaling of HD image anyway, be it 720 or 1080. That's one of reasons why when buying the plasma today, I'd go for 50" at least - not to mention that after few months my 42" Window to the Unreal Worlds seems to me as rather small :D

    Petr
     
  24. mcav

    mcav
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    I have not found anyone do the 435XDE cheaper anywhere else - av-sales.co.uk £2411 incl vat and delivery with 2 year warranty.

    Now that's value for money in my book... if i froogle it - I can't get a price to touch it.

    Can anyone else?
     
  25. arikhard

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    I don't know how 5000 series panel's scaling algorithms works, they may really lop a lump off while turning 720 to 1024. But here we are talking about 7000 series panel that uses new PictureMaster signal processor that makes better job. It uses up-conversion so lines are not simply lopped off. And when 1080 is turned to 1024 extra successive lines are not cutted off, instead, interpolation is used. Here is the Hitachi brochure http://www.hitachiconsumer.com.sg/productimages/7000Series Plasma.pdf that explains that process somewhat.
     
  26. LCDC

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    Thanks for that link :thumbsup:. I see they assume a higher level of intelligence in Australia :D, as this brochure gives much more informative technical explanations than other brochures on the 7000 series that I've seen :smashin:.

    I feel a lot more comfortable now about going to collect my new 7200 this weekend :), especially after reading all the posts from the ALIS bashers on here :rolleyes:.

    Perhaps they'd better update their hate data :lesson:, as the 7200's processing power seems a lot more accomplished than previous incarnations of the ALIS panel ;).
     
  27. MAW

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    Er, no they still do it at 1080. And they certainly still overscan, I've seen it.
     
  28. Cable Monkey

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    The problem is the distinct lack of data, and the only people who can be held responsible for that is Hitachi themselves. That allows those who are less enthusiastic about Alis to comment with very little those of us who are fans to argue back with. Makes precious little difference to me though! :D I like mine and no amount of comment by others is going to make me chuck it for the latest and greatest beginning with 'Pio' or 'Pan'. Perhaps in 3 years if I can get it past the cash committee, and even then the Hitachi of the day will probably still be on my shortlist.
     
  29. MAW

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    LCDC, there are no major updates of ALIS, nor it's processing. What's in a name, as was famously said. I think the nub of the non-adjustable overscan issue in now more clearly stated, they say all is upscaled to 1080, which is then cropped to fit 1024 vertical lines, 'minimal interpolation'. This is definitely cropping, I've seen vertical pixel mapping with a scaler and a test pattern, experiments to understand what goes on. You may say the edge of the picture does not matter much, it happens to irritate the pants off me. The signal officially is 1125i, which means 1080 lines of active picture information, the junk is in the lines already thrown away. However, none of this matters as long as you, the man who pays for it, are happy, and remain so for a 'reasonable' length of time. My biggest hitachi issues have to do with overall quality. I'll try to leave that subject alone, having been horribly right on one previous model.
     

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