1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What HD DVD Player to buy?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nogimmix, Aug 8, 2005.

  1. nogimmix

    nogimmix
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,096
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Kent & Canary Wharf
    Ratings:
    +83
    Just brought a JVC LT32DS6 LCD TV and currently looking to purchase a HD dvd player.

    My current system consists of a Pioneer VSX-C402 AV Receiver and a Pioneer DV470 DVD Player, I'm looking to replace the DV470 with either a Samsung HD850 or HD950 and as my system is mainly sliver (with bits of black) I don't know whether to opt for the 850 due to this.
    The 950 does look quite sexy though!!

    I will be looking to connect the HD player via HDMI to my LCD and then for sound connect the optical out into the C402, will this be possible to do minus any problems?

    Many thanks.
     
  2. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,129
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +562
    If you want a HD DVD player NOW you'll need something like this which plays WMV-HD format discs...

    http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101546&itempath=&feature_id=08

    The Samsungs etc aren't HD, even though they ambiguously claim they are. They simply upscale normal DVD which, depending on your particular kit, may not improve the picture and may even degrade it...PJ :)

    EDIT: Note also that the JVC player highlighted is not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, it stores data on standard DVDs hence won't be of the same quality as when Blu-ray/HD-DVD do finally appear.
     
  3. nogimmix

    nogimmix
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,096
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Kent & Canary Wharf
    Ratings:
    +83
    JVC looks really nice, quite a bit out of my budget I bet!!
    I'm looking up to the £200 region at the moment as my lottery win hasn't happened yet!
     
  4. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,129
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +562
    $399 I think, but yes the main point I was trying to get across was that the Samsungs aren't HD - I wouldn't expect many people to go for a niche product like that JVC.

    I thought you could get both the Samsungs in silver and black, if not it makes your decision easier!

    ...PJ :)
     
  5. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,474
    I think that before you spend your money, you should spend ALOT of time on this forum!

    There are NO, repeat NO, HD DVD players available at this time (I would strongly advise that you don't go down the WMV route, unless you are an early adopter type and really need to see some HD stuff tomorrow - you really need to know what you are buying).
    I would just wait a few months for the first 'true' HD players to become available (probably HD DVD before BluRay) and then things will become clearer.
    (As mud, maybe...)
    Whatever you do, don't buy a DVD player which claims to be a HD DVD player NOW withouf fully understanding what you are buying, as per PJTX's post and my comments above wrt WMV.

    Phil

    Phil
     
  6. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    so for now, just buy a £99 Samsung HD850 which does (as far as I can see) a reasonable job of upscalling your current SD DVDs, and then replace with a proper HD DVD once they are available and affordable.
    That's what I am doing :)
     
  7. nogimmix

    nogimmix
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,096
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Kent & Canary Wharf
    Ratings:
    +83
    I've decided to do the same as you Loz, buy the Samsung now and when proper HD players are out I'll buy one then.

    Now whether to buy the 850 or 950, hmmm!!
     
  8. Goooner

    Goooner
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    30,752
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Ratings:
    +9,817
    That's exactly what I've done, I went with the 950 purely for the DVD Audio and SACD. It will last me until HD DVD or Blu Ray are a reasonable price or somebody brings out a universal player that does both.
     
  9. inzaman

    inzaman
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    7,875
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Derby
    Ratings:
    +929
    If i was buying a dvd player now, then yes that is what i would do. You can then save your money and wait for the true hidef hardware to be released.
     
  10. domtheone

    domtheone
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    13,502
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Ratings:
    +2,278
    And your impressions with this player ;)

    Anything you could compare it against?
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    why buy an upscaling DVD player when you screen already does this?

    You'll set most upscaling players to 720p or even 1080i. The former will then be scaled for a second time to the like resolution of most LCD screens, namely 768p. The later will be deinterlaced (incorrectly by the way) and then scaled for a second time as well.

    As has been pointed out already THERE ARE NO CURRENT HD PLAYERS
     
  12. Goooner

    Goooner
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    30,752
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Ratings:
    +9,817
    Haven't tried any DVD Audio or SACD yet, but both R1 and R2 DVDs look great upscaled to 1080i. It also plays DIVX, XVID which is useful.

    Previous player was a Pioneer 656. The 950 is missing a couple of little things that the 656 had, for instance you can't find out the time remaining, either for the total DVD or individual chapters, as I said not a big thing but it can be useful at times.

    The bookmark feature on the 950 is pretty redundant IMO as it only remembers it until you switch it off.

    Initial impressions are it's very good for the money, very pleased with it and it will certainly last me until genuine HD players appear.

    If you want to know anything specific, ask and I'll try to answer.
     
  13. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    Except the HD850/950 upscale to 768p too.
    And output a HDMI signal for a digital connection, saving any analog/digital conversion.

    The 1028x768p picture seems a perfect complement to a plasma panel of the same resolution like a Panny P500, or the Samsung PS42S5H.

    I saw one driving a Panny P500 and the picture was stunning.
     
  14. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    If you read my post accurately you will it is worded accurately to take into account non standard players like 850 / 950 :)

    However if you feel two scaling operation is good, fine, 1366 x 768 goes beautifully into 1024 x 768 of a plasma ;), is that with or without scaling? You get the point I am trying to make I think without going into specifics :smashin:

    The trick is to get 1:1 with the minimum number of scaling operations (and deinterlacing) but by using the best that is available.

    If you have a 720p native device I would with feed 720p or 480p / 576p
    If your device is 768p (or different again) then you need to think about it again. HDMI interfaces don't include this as a standard (though one or two MIGHT recognise it). DVI will most likely recognise it at 60 Hz, chances are much less at 50 Hz. RGBHV is likely to be better again but is not 'really' allowed from DVD players!! However many panels don't allow you address at 1:1 rates at all, currently however this situation is getting a bit better. EDID will also come into play here. So unless you can guarantee you can drive the panel 1:1 at 50Hz and 60 Hz I think you are better off sending signals out at 480p / 576p and letting the panel scaler do it's bizz.

    1080i is worse again and the panels are mostly native progressive in the electronics, so scaling operations have to be done but also deinterlacing on 1080i signals. Currently the quality of this on commercial kit is pretty poor, it might get a picture but certainly doesn't follow 'motion adaptive' techniques which we have come to praise on the better chips used in DVD players (SIL504 / Faroudja).
     
  15. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    I am confused. The 850/950 output a 1024x768p picture which is a 1:1 match for the panels I quoted.

    Are you saying the Panny P500 or Samsung wont recognize this over HDMI? If so, that seems dumb (that a panel wouldnt recognize a signal at its native resolution) and doubly dumb in Samsung's case as they make both the player and panel :suicide:
     
  16. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Okay lets take a step backwards and just look at one make, say Samsung.

    HDMI standard is

    480i@60Hz
    480p@60Hz
    576i@50Hz
    576p@50Hz
    720p@60Hz
    720p@50Hz
    1080i@50Hz
    1080i@60Hz

    and not all of the above are compulsory, some are optional. 720p is the obvious standard we aim at along with 480 and 576 p at the relevant 60 and 50 Hz.

    Samsung DVD player outputs via DVI

    480p@60Hz
    576p@50Hz
    720p@60Hz
    720p@50Hz
    1080i@60Hz
    1080i@50Hz

    and if you ‘hack' it a 768p. Whether this is 1366 x 768 or 1024 x 768, I am not sure, I would go for the former, you obviously think the latter. It is immaterial.

    Lets now look at two Samsung panels.

    Samsung PS42S5H is a plasma with a resolution of 1024 x x768, which many call 768p, not strictly correct but close enough.

    Samsung LE32RDX (?) is the LCD with a resolution of 1366 x 768, which many call 768p, not strictly correct but again close enough.

    So we have the two competing technologies, both with different resolutions, both claiming 768p. Are we saying that neither needs scaling. No of course they do.

    Now lets put this in context. Neither of these two standard panels actually has a resolution that ties in with the HDMI standard, namely 720p. This is why DLP are light years ahead in this department. The resolution may both be common but they are NOT part of HDMI spec.

    Even with the hack on the Samsung player, it does not address the resolution issue of the same manufacturers flat panels!! Other makes are no different by the way. The hack by the way is ‘unusual' and MOST machines do NOT have this.

    HDMI inputs have only a limited range of compatibility and this shows in the way you use them.

    Take for example the HDMI input on the above mentioned LCD panel (or it's 26 or 40 cousins). Feed it 720p from a DVD player and you get a picture. Feed it 720p from a computer (1280 x 720) and the text looks horrible (at 50 or 60 Hz). This is due to double scaling. It is far easier to see with a computer image (due to text) but the same happens with DVD as well.

    Feed the HD15 RGBHV with an old analogue signal at 1366 x 768 from the computer and it looks brilliant. DVD as well. You are now addressing the panel at 1:1 and have a single scaling operation, feed it 1024 x 768……..well I leave to find out. You are addressing the native resolution of the panel at 1366 x 768 with the minimum of scaling operation.

    The HDMI socket on the panel does not accept 1366 x 768.

    I am not after the exceptions to the rule here but I am trying to get people thinking about what they do when connecting up these devices. The is MUCH merit using HDMI at 480p@50 and 576p@60, this way you also get the advantage of lower bandwidth and longer cable tuns…..

    Confusing?, yes, but don't blame the messenger!! But are you now so sure you have the right 768p? If yours is right then you LCD cousin is wrong and visa versa. DLP 720p doesn't have this problem.
     
  17. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    and many panels cannot be addressed at their native resolutions on a variety of input, not uncommon unfortunately.
     
  18. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    Nick, thanks for the detailed explanation.

    But in the Samsung HD850 case it can output 1024x768 over HDMI, (according to the manual). And the Samsung PS42S5H is a 1024x768 panel. The Manual for the Samsung PS42S5H says it accepts 1024x768 from a PC, but says nothing about HDMI resolutions when connected to a DVD player or other source. As the PC needs to be connected via the HDMI socket however, can I assume that the 1024x768 signal from the HD850 is going to be accepted to - or is there going to be a timing/frequency issue as well?

    Sounds like connecting the HD850 to a DLP at 1280x720p might be better resolution wise. But her indoors isn't impressed enough by DLP. She looks at Plasma and sees brighter and thinner and better viewing angles.
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    If the resolutions match (good) then it will be down to timing, can it accept 50 hz etc......As we are dealing with XGA here there might be better compatibilty anyway but where does that leave the LCD majority who need to drive at 1366 x 768.

    I am afraid there is no substitute to trying, yours may well work here due to non standard 'hacks', most others will not be so lucky. Your system might be working as it doesn't conform to standards!!

    A quick look at a supplier of 42 inch plasmas had this:

    1024 x 1024 (4 of)
    1024 x 768 (4 off)
    1024 x 720 (4 off)

    other common ones off the top of my head

    1280 x 768
    1366 x 768

    Standard HDMI is 1280 x 720
     
  20. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    isn't the Panny you quoted earlier 1024 x 720 anyway? P500 range?
     
  21. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,129
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +562
    :thumbsup:

    Interesting reading Nic.

    Resolution aside, I'm surprised the mere fact of taking out the need to convert the video signal to analogue then back to digital isn't a more significant advantage than it seems to be in reality?

    ...PJ :)
     
  22. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    The 37" P500 is 1024x720, but the 42" is 1024x768.
     
  23. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    PJ it is all down to how you do it. No one complained about the quality of the Tag DVI board which go it's input from the analogue outputs!!
     
  24. inzaman

    inzaman
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    7,875
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Derby
    Ratings:
    +929
    It is very interesting reading, you would think that they would just make the panels 1280x720 or 1920x1080 and be done.
     
  25. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,129
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +562
    :rotfl:

    I'd love to have seen the comments like "the pure digital domain transcends the analogue"... before this was discovered...PJ :)
     
  26. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    yup, Panny web site for PV500 says

    37 inch is 1024 x 720
    42 inch is 1024 x 768
    50 inch is 1366 x 768.

    I think that makes my point nicely :)
     
  27. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    I really think that now DLP 720p RPTV are close to £1k then the others need to start thinking a bit more, the customers get educated quite quickly on the pros and cons.

    oh re the text and double scaling, well worth doing and it really shows what is what here.
     
  28. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Tag were actually quite open about it, basically because what they said was correct. It made little difference.
     
  29. loz

    loz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Messages:
    13,058
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    It also makes my point that if the two will work together over HDMI, an HD850 outputting at 1024x768 ought to be a good match for the 42" panny, or Samsung HD panel both of which have 1024x768 resolution.

    Of course, it doesnt get away from the fact there is still scaling going on (from the source DVD resolution) in the HD850. And the question remains as to whether the DVD or the Panel is best at handling this. Only detailed testing can tell I guess.
     
  30. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    As I said right at the beginning, this is not about specific model.

    yes glad yours works but it is one small part of a much larger market, many (re most) others are less fortunate but you have to put up with the non standard 850 in order to get this to work :). I prefer to stick to standards and players that follow them.

    Just because a hacked 850 syncs with a Sammy plasma, DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL WORK WITH OTHER MODELS. This is a non standard HDMI resolution which you may or may not be able to use, depending on a variety of issues. It will NOT be tested in the HDMI compatibility tests / labs. You are not using HDMI, you are just using the same connectors to send non HDMI signals, just like the issues with HDMI / DVI compatibility. Ever tried getting 50 Hz into DVI, it ain't easy!!

    As I have tried to say from the beginning, you need to know a little about how these work in order to get the best out of them. My posts hopefully got people thinking about how they worked.
     

Share This Page

Loading...