What do you think HD DVD Offers over Blu-ray?

Welwynnick

Distinguished Member
The Microsoft seminar with Kevin & Amir was very interesting and quite thought-provoking.

Amir's arguements in favour of HDDVD were quite compelling, especially regarding the relative ease of manufacture. BDs seem to be much more challenging to make, especially dual layer discs.

Where HD DVD is an evolution of an existing manufacturing technology and not pushing things forwards as much as it might, BD appears to be breaking new ground, and having a bit of a hard time. Not that DVDs were easy to make 9 years ago, though. Processes get developed, yields come up and costs come down.

But ease of manufacture is being promoted as an advantage for HD DVD. However, I was always taught that when advertising something, you had to promote the benefit, rather than the product or the process. In this context, the benefit should be reduced prices (to the consumer), not reduced costs to the manufacturer.

But are HD DVDs cheaper to buy than BDs? And if not, then who is cashing in, then?

Nick
 

SAH

Banned
Put it this way, I don't think ease of manufacter and cost are going to decide this war.

The deciding factor will be content and marketing.

Player costs will be similar within a few short months, titles already cost the same.
 

Oakleyspatz

Well-known Member
Hi Nick,
Nice to meet you yesterday and I found it interesting too although not mind-blowing. I have a feeling some of that may me down to the Sony projector which is well known for giving a filmic although not always a super sharp image.
I actually asked the chap sitting next to me if the focus was slightly out (especially on the Harry Potter clip) as it looked even softer than what I can get off Sky HD. Many will prefer film this way. That is to say, more like film! But I find the biggest bonus of HD over SD is the increased resolution, detail and sharpness. Losing this to any degree is , in my mind, a compromise. A great night and very enlightening, but it didn't make me think.."Wow! HD-DVD is so much better than Sky HD which is what I was hoping for. Maybe on my set-up, the difference will be more noticeable.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand....

HD-DVD currently offers the following benefits over Blu-Ray.

1) Cheaper hardware (although the gap is starting to close)
2) Better specified players for your money ( e.g. network capability on all players)
3) Better support of high resolution audio formats even on budget players
4) More widespread use of the superior VC1 video codec (again this may soon change as Blu-Ray seems to be moving away from Mpeg2)
5) The adopted format of the DVD Forum as the HD replacement for DVD

That's the main points currently, you could also argue that HD DVD has a better selection of titles currently but that is a matter of personal preference, not fact.

I am not a HD DVD fanboy, but I am a HD fanboy. If Blu-Ray can do all HD DVD can do and at the same price then I will take a serious look at Blu-Ray. Currently I am buying HD DVD primarily due to affordability and performance. If Blu-Ray was blowing HD DVD out of the water on performance then I may have saved a little longer for a BD player but it isn't.

What I have learnt, especially after last night, is that equipment and material can play just as big a role in performance as can format....but especially material.

Michael Mann has a lot to answer for!!
 
P

Packetfront

Guest
I would not trust anything that comes from a Microsoft employee.

They are good at one thing, making people beleive their religion is the best.

That's the only thing they are good at, marketing.
 

FOXCLOSE

Active Member
There's no doubt while HD-DVD is still in the lead, BD has closed the gap.

2007 will be interesting will all those PS3s in the market. I strongly feel BD will slowly take the lead away and just past HD-DVD and not many people will care in fact really.
 

Oakleyspatz

Well-known Member
I would not trust anything that comes from a Microsoft employee.

They are good at one thing, making people beleive their religion is the best.

That's the only thing they are good at, marketing.

For a company to survive, being good at marketing is a prerequisite! But if this was purely a marketing excercise (and I admit it was primarily one) then surely send a marketing guy, not the top technical guy responsible for helping advance the format and develop the VC1 codec.
Plus you cannot tell me that Sony would be any different! In fact I'm wrong, they may be very different, they could send a sales guy who only knows what he has read, and has no actual technical expertise whatsoever.
It is marketing that has kept Sony adamant that Mpeg2 is as good as VC1. They know full well it is not, but as they have used it on their initial releases, they could never admit to it.
Of course we all knew that Amir was there to sell HD DVD to us and nor was there anything wrong with that. But he was candid enough (and brave enough) to allow and answer any questions whatsoever.
There was no hard sell and I didn't come away thinking it must be HD DVD and nothing else, but he informed us and enlightened us on various aspects of the format and its history and his passion for the product was unquestionable.
Saying " Never believe anything Microsoft says" is as ludicrous as saying all Irish people are stupid.
How about this for a statement: It is written into every Microsoft employee's contract to always lie

Well your statement comes across as being just as ridiculous.
 

neilneil

Active Member
I would not trust anything that comes from a Microsoft employee.

They are good at one thing, making people beleive their religion is the best.

That's the only thing they are good at, marketing.

Oh and I suppose you think that the BD marketing machine isn't the same?

Back on topic, I think most of the technical stuff is irrelivant to winning the format war.
It will come down to two advantages...

1. HD DVD has cost of hardware as it's main selling point since it does the same job as Blu Ray but for less money.

2. Blu Ray has studio support.

Which advantage is going to cave in first could decide the winner.

1. As long as the HD DVD group can keep a substantial price gap between themselves and BD then they will allways pick up the early adopters at each price point.

2. As long as BD keeps it's exclusive studio advantage it should see the format through.

The question is can HD DVD stay ahead on price and sell enough players to attract the studio support.
Or can Blu Ray release enough movies to attract customers away from HD DVD.


Who knows.


-Neil
 
P

Packetfront

Guest
Saying " Never believe anything Microsoft says" is as ludicrous as saying all Irish people are stupid.
How about this for a statement: It is written into every Microsoft employee's contract to always lie

Well your statement comes across as being just as ridiculous.

I work in the IT-industry and i know all about evil empire Microsoft.

They tend to make salespeople and other more not technically persons at companies beleive in their products deliver the best performance and stability.

You seem to belong to that group of people.

They are good at marketing and making people buy their bull.

You may not know about it when you attended the show but you have probably been affected but you don't know about it.

Microsoft has always been good at making bad things look good.

Just go to their site and read how bad Linux is, if you know anything about Linux and have worked with Open source you know the articles are just propaganda from their side.

Psychological marketing, make the customer beleive in you.
 

DocDVD

Active Member
I work in the IT-industry and i know all about evil empire Microsoft.

They tend to make salespeople and other more not technically persons at companies beleive in their products deliver the best performance and stability.

You seem to belong to that group of people.

They are good at marketing and making people buy their bull.

You may not know about it when you attended the show but you have probably been affected but you don't know about it.

Microsoft has always been good at making bad things look good.

Just go to their site and read how bad Linux is, if you know anything about Linux and have worked with Open source you know the articles are just propaganda from their side.

Psychological marketing, make the customer beleive in you.

Ah, Packetfront - replace "Microsoft" with "Sony" in your post and it stays equally true.

For the topic at hand I stay with the already mentioned:
1) Cheaper hardware (although the gap is starting to close)
2) Better specified players for your money ( e.g. network capability on all players)
3) Better support of high resolution audio formats even on budget players
4) More widespread use of the superior VC1 video codec (again this may soon change as Blu-Ray seems to be moving away from Mpeg2)
5) The adopted format of the DVD Forum as the HD replacement for DVD

And I add the points:
6) Region free at this point

Not really a advantage point but something to consider:
Canal+ is supporting HD-DVD and will release movies here in Europe that are from BD-only studios in the US.
 

RS 4273

Active Member
:rotfl: Thats exactley what iwas going to say but i thought na i would leave it..!!

In refrence to this..

"Originally Posted by Packetfront"
I work in the IT-industry and i know all about evil empire Microsoft :rolleyes: = sony.

They tend to make salespeople and other more not technically persons at companies beleive in their products deliver the best performance and stability.

You seem to belong to that group of people.

They are good at marketing and making people buy their bull.

You may not know about it when you attended the show but you have probably been affected but you don't know about it.

Microsoft :rolleyes: = sony has always been good at making bad things look good.

Psychological marketing, make the customer beleive in you.
 

Rich777

Active Member
My opinion is HD-DVD is the more "fit for purpose intended" solution

They are just mediums for digital data to be stored on ,and a convenient way to retail HD film at this present time.

But the short of it: BD is over-engineered.

1. modern codecs dictate the capacity requirement and that has shrunk considerably.

2. Its cheaper to make quantities of a disc with less density, tolerances are wider which increases the yield.

3. BD requires whole new plants and processes, these will have to be rolled out worldwide by its supporting companies, it will need lots of companies to be involved and lots of money and lots of time to build up the new infrastructure. HD-DVD does not need as much support, its network is already in place.

Which would you choose ?
 

irascian

Banned
HD-DVD currently offers the following benefits over Blu-Ray.

1) Cheaper hardware (although the gap is starting to close)
2) Better specified players for your money ( e.g. network capability on all players)
3) Better support of high resolution audio formats even on budget players
4) More widespread use of the superior VC1 video codec (again this may soon change as Blu-Ray seems to be moving away from Mpeg2)
5) The adopted format of the DVD Forum as the HD replacement for DVD

I think you missed one of the most important: region free format. This gives me as a European purchaser much more freedom of choice. I know Blu-Ray also has some region-free releases but the official story is there are regions and trying to work out if a US-produced Blu-Ray disc will actually play on a UK purchased Blu-Ray player is a nightmare because the information is never made available when a title is announced.
 

SAH

Banned
I think were HD-DVD is failing is in respect of not keeping early adopters HD-DVD exclusive.

Once you've bought your first 15-20 HD-DVD titles you start to look at the release schedules and they are pretty barron.

6 months into HD-DVD ownership new releases become an issue, a format requires at least 5 titles a week to be released in order to cover everyones differening movie preferences.

ATM, HD-DVD see's a blockbuster released one week, a classic the next, they really need a couple of each every week.
 

supermackem

Active Member
It very early days mate, and hddvd releases are nomrally quick some have been ohh we have this coming out in two weeks time etc, there hasnt been many long winded this is coming out 6 months from now releases. The same can be said for br tbh looking at the release lineup theres nothing much coming i want but i bet like hddvd release some will sneak up and be out within weeks of an annoucment.
 
H

HighDeff

Guest
What do you think HD DVD Offers over Blu-ray?

1.: The HD-DVD players are way cheeper.

2.: The HD-DVD players are "HD-regionfree"

3.: PQ are exactly the same or better on HD-DVDs.

What do you want more. :D
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
4. You can burn your own HD DVD formatted discs with a regular £20 PC or Mac DVD burner and regular old 4.5GB or 9GB blank DVDs for pennies each.

Pretty handy if you want to utilise HD content at home, e.g. make 720p or 1080i movies or burn TS files to disc.

Saves buying super expensive new HD format optical drive burner and eye-wateringly expensive blank media.

StooMonster
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
What do you think HD DVD Offers over Blu-ray?

1.: The HD-DVD players are way cheeper.

2.: The HD-DVD players are "HD-regionfree"

3.: PQ are exactly the same or better on HD-DVDs.

What do you want more. :D

4. All current players support network connectivity enabling access to future online content etc.

AVI
 

ianh64

Active Member
For me, the big advantage to HD-DVD over blu-ray is the unity of products. You can buy hd-dvd and pretty much know what your are getting and what features it will have. Im not saying that an HD-DVD player won't have differences in 1080i/p or analogue audio capabilities, because they do. But Joe Public is quite use to that when buying existing DVD technology or even VHS technology for that matter.

What HD-DVD offers is the ability to choose between product A and product B and, other than choosing what outputs the player has, they know that the capabilities of the disc will be the same. Thy will all play the same high definition soundtracks and video formats, they will all have multiple video decoders allowing PiP, they all have network connections, they all decode audio in the box (interactivity seems to be more of a feature in HD-DVD), they all the same core capabilities. With blu-ray, you need to look at each boxes capabilities to such an extent that Joe Public is going to roll their eyes and don't care what they are getting - only be be disappointed later. Fretting over which version of HDMI they require because their player may or may not decode audio, or wondering if they are getting the best audio or the best picture quality and how much a new amp will cost because their current one doesn't have HDMI 1.3 . With HD-DVD, they know that their player is capable of delivering it all without having to upgrade the rest of their system.

HD-DVD also has dual/combo discs - apparently physically impossible to manufacturer on blu-ray due to the construction of the 'sandwich'. If only the studios released DVD/HD-DVD combo discs exclusively, people would be buying into HD-DVD by default and not worrying that their purchase isn't going to play on any format player that they buy. Imagine the irony of playing the SD side of a DVD/HD-DVD combo disc in a blu-ray player.
 

Rich777

Active Member
Today's "over-engineered" is tomorrow's "fit-for-purpose" and next week's "obsolete".

Whereas today's "fit-for-purpose" is already that much closer to a dusty corner of the loft. :D

Don't agree, as a medium for HD films at 1080p I will allways consider it to be over engineered, the use of modern codecs has dictated this. You do not need the space.

Maybe as an exclusive format for the ps3 you could say "fit for purpose intended".
 

neilneil

Active Member
If only the studios released DVD/HD-DVD combo discs exclusively, people would be buying into HD-DVD by default and not worrying that their purchase isn't going to play on any format player that they buy. Imagine the irony of playing the SD side of a DVD/HD-DVD combo disc in a blu-ray player.
That would pretty much win the war for HD DVD it's exactly like saying PS3 will win the war for BD because of it's huge sales numbers only a much more sure thing. Joe public would think shall I buy a BD player and have to buy all my movies again or shall I buy HD DVD and play all those HD movies I allready have sitting at home. It would also raise awareness within the DVD buying public that this is the next generation of DVD.
The trouble with this is that they are not releasing HD DVD versions of their DVDs at the same rate and the studios would quite like the idea of the public buying all their movies again. :(

4. You can burn your own HD DVD formatted discs with a regular £20 PC or Mac DVD burner and regular old 4.5GB or 9GB blank DVDs for pennies each.

Pretty handy if you want to utilise HD content at home, e.g. make 720p or 1080i movies or burn TS files to disc.

Saves buying super expensive new HD format optical drive burner and eye-wateringly expensive blank media.

StooMonster

I didn't know you could do that! Do you just burn a regular DVD with HD TS files on it and it will play?

That actually sounds like a REAL advantage, why aren't they advertising this?

-Neil
 

inzaman

Moderator
HD-DVD also has dual/combo discs - apparently physically impossible to manufacturer on blu-ray due to the construction of the 'sandwich'. If only the studios released DVD/HD-DVD combo discs exclusively, people would be buying into HD-DVD by default and not worrying that their purchase isn't going to play on any format player that they buy. Imagine the irony of playing the SD side of a DVD/HD-DVD combo disc in a blu-ray player.
I'd forgot about that, that as you say is an excellent vehicle to get HD-DVD into peoples homes; then the marketing of "you dont need to buy those discs again you already have them all you need is the player". This makes it far cheaper and quicker for consumers to convert over to HD-DVD, an amazing competitive advantage.
 

andythescientis

Active Member
I'd forgot about that, that as you say is an excellent vehicle to get HD-DVD into peoples homes; then the marketing of "you dont need to buy those discs again you already have them all you need is the player". This makes it far cheaper and quicker for consumers to convert over to HD-DVD, an amazing competitive advantage.

The only problem with this is, that as a major advantage to the consumer, is it a disadvantage to the studios due to less total sales?

Unlike with BD non of the software manufacturers for HD-DVD seem to have any vested interest in the hardware for HD-DVD. The above is a massive advantage for selling hardware but do the studios really care if HD-DVD fails? If HD-DVD disapears universal will just make BD disks, and it's not really cost them much. If BD fails, sony looses big style on the hardware side, so they have a much bigger vested interested in promoting the format than universal do. Having said that i'm not buying any software at the moment, as i don't want to buy soon to be obsolete (to me) SD DVDs, and i've not decided on a format to buy yet, so i'm not buying any HD disks either.

I wonder how many people are in a similar possition and if total movie sales are likely to suffer the longer the war drags on? If this is the case will the studios actively get involved more with weighty releases to try and chivy the war along.
 

Oakleyspatz

Well-known Member
I work in the IT-industry and i know all about evil empire Microsoft.

They tend to make salespeople and other more not technically persons at companies beleive in their products deliver the best performance and stability.

You seem to belong to that group of people.

.

Come again? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!!!:confused:
Oh and 'Believe' is "ie" not "ei".... Someone who has difficulty with simple grammar is not someone I will take any advice from if that's ok!

The simple truth is any and every company is out to make money and will of course claim their product is better than any competition. This does not make them "evil" as you say, just a typical corporation.
The fact is they have enabled the consumer to buy into superb quality HD DVD and a remarkably affordable price. If that makes them "evil" then good luck to them!
 

Spoonhead

Well-known Member
Come again? That makes absolutely no sence whatsoever!!!:confused:
Oh and 'Believe' is "ie" not "ei".... Someone who has difficulty with simple grammar is not someone I will take any advice from if that's ok!

I got the impression that English isn't Packetfront's first language. We shouldn't complain about someones use of the english language, so long as the gist of people's posts is understood? IMO of course. You also have to be careful when pointing out spelling mistakes, especially if you make some yourself.

I still don't agree with Packetfront :D

Gazza
 

The latest video from AVForums

Star Wars Andor, Woman King, more Star Trek 4K, Rings of Power & the latest TV, movies & 4K releases
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Sky set to launch its plug-and-play Sky Stream solution
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Movies Podcast: 26th September 2022
  • By Phil Hinton
  • Published
AV Podcast: 26th September 2022
  • By Phil Hinton
  • Published
REL Acoustics announces new Serie HT subwoofer trio
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Marantz set to launch new Cinema Series of AV receivers
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom