What do people think of the follow statements?

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
What do people think of the follow statements?

One of today’s greatest ironies is that home cinema enthusiasts who own the latest DVD players and top flight multi channel systems have got systems that are capable of better audio reproduction than the majority of CD systems resident in the homes of people who consider themselves audiophiles!

The best dems are from dealers specialising in top quality home cinema. But audiophiles are not interested, and home cinema dealers are not interested in audio for audio’s sake – what a dichotomy!

:devil:
 

seany

Banned
They did say top flight, and by that i bet they mean Tag and meridion gear.. I had a very modest Av setup, a sony DB 930 and i used my Panny dvd for music . I now have Rotel gear for hifi, and its far better.

I guess it depends on how top flight your AV gear is. But i would disagree that a £300 receiver and a £250 dvd player-would match a hifi setup in the same price range for music.

Pound for pound, i'd say stick with 2 channel for hifi
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
top flight I think they are talking Pioneer, Denon and Marantz receivers
 

Mylo

Distinguished Member
I've got a Marantz receiver SR4200, good as it is, I prefer my Arcam A7R for CD listening in stereo.

Edit, not a top flight receiver but hailed as the most musical by the magazines in its day.
 
D

DonMaico

Guest
At what price does top flight begin? would an HK avr 8500 qualify? It sells for about £1800 I think. The 5550 for around half that amount. Would that qualify? It seems pretty good with music
 

avanzato

Active Member
That sounds remarkably similar to a quote from Pioneer in Hi-Fi World mag when they tested the Pioneer Amp and DVD connected with I-link. Having run a few DVDaudio through even my lowly system they're clearly superior to CD and there's only so much you can do to make CD sound 'better'.

As with Vinyl vs CD I already see the multi channel backlash on some forums, usually from people who have heard or added cheap multichannel to very expensive two channel systems. Then it sounds bad... I wonder why.

Though would a true audiophile even have CD, surely they only use mono Vinyl. :devil:
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Well it is from the interview with Pioneers John Bamford, ex journalist (and audiophile) and now the front man for Pioneer, one of the worlds most innovative audio firms. Certainly one of the more respected figures in the industry
 

Spligsey

Well-known Member
I remember Bob Stuart saying that people needed to get their head around not listening in stereo.

Adz
 
G

Gambit

Guest
One of the best music sounds I have ever heard was courtousy of Mr John Bamford at Pioneer's dem room - 757i, AX10i, Pioneer speakers. Absolutely amazing.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
It also depends on personal preference etc. I've heard some pretty damn good AV systems, and my own's not exactly cheap, but my Stereo system still sounds better for reproducing music. However, my AV system (surprise ) knocks my stereo hi-fi for six at reproducing movies - even when i used a DSP. I've seen "audiophiles" swear blind their hi-fi plus DSP is better than dedicated AV amps, but i have to say i've not heard one. Sure there is one out there though. ;)
 
S

SKA.face

Guest
Considering Pioneer arn't exactly producing and flooding the market with 2-channel kit,what else is the guy going to say?come on he's head of pioneer.Obvious statement really.
 

avanzato

Active Member
Well another interesting point in the interview is that Pioneer are an Audio only manufacturer. No cars, boats or planes. In fact by Japanese standards they are specialists and one of the most innovative too.

As a mass market product separates Two channel HiFi is dead and audiophile HiFi is a shrinking/dying market judging by the number of companies that are going bust. So any business goes where the money is. Naim now have an AV processor, something I bet they would have dismissed as not 'pure enough' even 5 years ago.

Multi channel sound will mature as Stereo did and in 30 years time people will look back with amusement at those quaint two speaker systems everyone had.
 
B

bobbypunk

Guest
I really disagree with that
After watching the change there is an increase in AV equipment but Stereo is moving upmarket, It seems to me more boxes are going out and better boxes at that.
AV amps are obviously out selling them as there is still people who don't have one.
A budget setup 1 year ago was basic sony or technics (2 years ago Kenwood) now it tends to start at NAD that's double the amount per box.
I would NEVER expect someone to use an AV amp as a stereo replacement without at least demming it for that use aswell.
But I was suprised how much better an AV amp sounds when you give it a decent source (Decent T/Table or CD player) it's not always the amplifier quality that is the problem!
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Multi channel sound will mature as Stereo did and in 30 years time people will look back with amusement at those quaint two speaker systems everyone had.
Not likely. As above a good quality stereo system reproduces music more realisticly, and gives a better quality sound overall. Plus multi channel often sounds "gimicky" when compared to stereo. I'm not overly impressed with SACD's in Multi channel, whereas they sound great in Stereo. Again, partly a question of taste.
 
S

SKA.face

Guest
2 channel stereo is far from dead,people just get sucked in by marketing and Hi-fi mags noscense.

I suppose Vinyl is dead too?if this is the case why are Rega still making the Planer 2 and 3?new decks such as the p5 and 7,if it was so dead surely that would comercial suicide, and I would take any Rega product over any Pioneer kit.

So why do so many people after buying A/V amps etc feel that the music side is a big let down?then go looking for 2 channel kit,offboard DACs to raise its performance?If A/V was that good surely they needen't bother.

I am fortunate to have both,A/V & HI-FI, so i find the statement from pioneer not valid and obvious,its called marketing,and that what they say is just pushing there intrest,and what they sell:
 

VirusKiller

Active Member
I was stunned when I first heard analogue CD, radio and TV with Trifield (3-front channel) processing from my (sadly missed) Meridian 561 AV processor. And that involved A->D conversion, digital processing, and D->A conversion.

If done well, there is no technical reason why multi-channel should sound inferior.

My 2p.
 

sceptic

Active Member
I'm sure that the time will come when 99% of music will be produced by A/V amplifiers together with DVD players.
I feel that the difference in quality between A/V and stereo amps tends to be exagerated as does the difference between DVD and CD players.
Sure, there'll be some diehards who will want separate boxes for A/V and stereo amps, CD and DVD players, and DACs, but the vast majority will use the the one-box solutions.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
but the vast majority will use the the one-box solutions
You're probably right. However, that will be midi or micro systems with AV built in, as the vast majority of systems aren't hifi, or dedicated AV, and most people are quite happy with that. Are you a die-hard then?;)


One box solutions are good if you spend a LOT of money. Personally, while i get better quality stereo from my standard Hifi kit, and good quality multi channel from my AV kit i'm quite happy with both thanks. Especially as they cost less combined (amp's that is) than the only really good, all in one, AV system i've heard.

I would agree however, that standalone CD will fade away - apart from the very high end. My multiformat DVD is far superior to my CD player, although in fairness, it did cost £300 more.
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Electronics have come on leaps and bounds in the last 5 years, digital chips from 5 years ago are now worthless as are most of the products they occupy. It still amazes me why people want to buy most digital product > 5years at all bar the top end stuff (and I mean top). Modern chips are chalk and cheese better in ALL respects. If used correctly, any most do now, are quality solutions for silly money. Anyone listened to a Toshiba DVD connected with an optical output recently? They are great performers, not perfect, but damn good, certinly light years ahead of what the 717, 9000, 7700 era premium DVD players like mine can do.

and I still don't buy this marketting bit, have you asked Rega / Linn etc how many turntables they make now :)

Vinyl dead?, pretty much but those of us who have huge collections don't really care but it is basically dead. Sales of 180gm ARE tiny. Just ask outside of Vivante who else is selling this stuff? It doesn't stop it working well but yes I consider it dead, even friends who make turntables for > 40 years professionally have an interesting tale to tell ;). Would I prefer it not be dead, yes but I have faced reality. 12 inch, high end and historical are the only faint glimmers here. I am in the latter two camps.

Re outboard DACs etc. I am a strong exponent of these technologies. I also recognise the considerable weaknesses as well. They are far from a solution to all our sorrows and need to be used inteligently where they can offer benefits. A recognition of strengths and weaknesses is essential. Again modern chipsets have enabled the few new ones on the market with GREAT potential but I remain far from convinced over the abilities of older models. Again modern chipsets have endowed the more recent devices with significant gains but these same gains can / are applied to AV receivers as well.

I think we need to compare on a similar basis here. A CD payer with AV electronic that is of similar quality. A CD player will be cheaper to produce but it does so damn little, do we assume we get DD / PL2 / Trifield / L7 /TMS / DTS all for nothing and those extra DACs............etc etc etc. Comparison of AV multi channel audio leaves CD players somewhat lacking in their abilities.

If done well there is NO reason why multichannel should sound any different....and many seem to be doing things well at the moment, especially Pioneer, true not perfect but these guys genuinely seem to know what they are doing (largely down to lack of motorbike Rand D) :) Why can't the statements be reasonable then?

sucked in by markettig? Moi? Interesting concept in it's own right, personally I have neither agreed or disagreed with the comments I posted but felt them worth discussing but I still don't buy marketing here.
 

CJROSS

Well-known Member
oday’s greatest ironies is that home cinema enthusiasts who own the latest DVD players and top flight multi channel systems have got systems that are capable of better audio reproduction than the majority of CD systems resident in the homes of people who consider themselves audiophiles!

If using high esolution 96-192 Khz tracks then I would say yes that would be true, but normal 5.1 DVD-V @ 48Khz ? Hmmm the jury is out on that front.

dems are from dealers specialising in top quality home cinema. But audiophiles are not interested, and home cinema dealers are not interested in audio for audio’s sake – what a dichotomy!

Staright away this boils down to an argument from what I can see as stereo listening & multichannel listening and the systems that produce music from these formats. Now Pioneers head honcho is obviosly going to say that most people with topflight multichannel systems are better served musically as that’s the way his company are “headed” having given up the ghost in 2 channel stereo terms.

Now if you listened to purely DVD-V or DVD-A is 5.1 mode, and not CD then it would be a good argument, but the reality is that CD is the format that will outlast DVD-A or SACD. Its liked by many audiophiles it does a great job when used in a decent system (like DVD-V & DVD-A or SACD I would add) but I cant help but think as someone has said above that they all lose out to vinyl for musicality & fluidity, and is that a multi-channel format ?

So I would say Pioneers head man is only pushing multichannel because it benefits his aim for the company. Oh & I know a few audiophile with topflight AV/5.1 systems who are uncovinced about MC music for a number of reasons be it SACD or DVDA.

MC music has a long long way to go IMHO, there is even a thread on here asking if DVD-A is dead in the water, now this is where SACD steals a march on DVDA with its stereo compatibility on every disc. Stereo be it from vinyl or CD will be here a long time dudes, and thats me speaking as someone who enjoys DVD-V music as lot from his stereo system.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
CJ, terrific post, couldn't have put it better myself. Covered every base too! :)

It's also interesting to note that one of Pioneers head honchos prefers Vinyl replay, and isn't sold (he's said so publicy) on the multi channel format at all. So i guess it depends on who's speaking for "Pioneer" at the time, and on whether they have their personal or "corporate" hat on.

Out of interest, did I not read somewhere that Vinyl sales were the only ones last year that rose significantly? (BBC text news) I know that anythings significant when you're selling in micro amounts but hey, dead? I think not. :D 180 gram sales are low? I wonder why? Exorbitant prices perhaps? At £15-18 a hit you've got to be a real fanatic to bother.

Back on track, CJ is right, CD is here to stay for a looooooong time yet.
 

Ed Selley

AVF Reviewer
Originally posted by overkill
Out of interest, did I not read somewhere that Vinyl sales were the only ones last year that rose significantly? (BBC text news) I know that anythings significant when you're selling in micro amounts but hey, dead? I think not. :D 180 gram sales are low? I wonder why? Exorbitant prices perhaps? At £15-18 a hit you've got to be a real fanatic to bother.

Yep, the only format that is a real growth area for media sales. So much so that my colleagues over at Cambridge Audio are currently designing a high quality offboard phono stage for their Azur amps- a project that was canned as uneconomic 5 years ago.

Plus ca change............
 

sceptic

Active Member
Originally posted by CJROSS
Stereo be it from vinyl or CD will be here a long time dudes
I don't think, anywhere on this thread, is that disputed.
The point of the thread is to discuss what reproduces music better - stereo or AV systems.
Are DVD players as good as CD players?
Are stereo amps better than AV amps?
These, as I understand it, are the discussion points not the relative merits of 2 channel and surround formats.
 

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