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What causes lip sync!!!

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by haujobbz, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. haujobbz

    haujobbz
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    As u know denon 2800s are well known for lip sync problems, but what bl***y causes it.

    I mean it does happen on other players, do you think buy using a dolby digital reciever with sound delay on it would solve the problem of lip sync or would any basic dolby surround amp be able to delay the sound.

    also do you think using the new "qed rgb scart to vga" would solve the lip synncing on my denon 2800
     
  2. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    I thought lip sync was usually a problem with the display device you are using - eg a plasma screen having to 'process' the picture signal, thus lagging behind the sound.

    Under £1000 I think the Denon 3803 is the only amp with adjustable audio delay. I'm sure that NathanSilly and others can advise further.
     
  3. nathan_silly

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    Some DVD players do have problems with lip sync, even when plugged into a normal TV running interlaced (Pioneer 717 had problems)

    On a seperate issue, running progressive - either into a Plasma, LCD or CRT PJ adds a video delay- due to extra video processing, and a indentical audio delay needs to be used either with a AV amp (Denon 3803) Processor (Tag AV32R, Lexicon DC/MC range etc)

    Try using your DVD player with a TV- if there's a delay, then it's the DVD player at fault.
     
  4. haujobbz

    haujobbz
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    Under a 1000.00:eek:

    My god i didnt think it happened when not using progressive scan :rolleyes:

    If it still does it im gonna change it 4 another player possibly the harmon kardon dv25:rolleyes:

    You see i want a player that doesnt have the chroma bug,lip sync,artifactin problems.:mad:

    What player will give superior results in progressive scan without these bugs:(
     
  5. nathan_silly

    nathan_silly
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    AFAIK the only players I know of which hasen't got Chroma bug are Panny's. Oh I think the Tag as well.

    Checkout the Panasonic RP-91K (110V R1 import)

    Tosh, Pioneer, Onkyo, Arcam, Denon, hell even the £10,000 Meridian have the Chroma bug.
     
  6. Ice Inferno

    Ice Inferno
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    The PS2 is the worst player ever for lip sync. Im forced to watch R1 DVD's through it because my DVD player isn't multi-regional and theres no region hack's for it! Damn you Sony!

    I end up having to pause the DVD every 20 minutes or so to allow for the DVD to "catch up", I don't know why but this does actually work, it gets a bit tedious though through a long film. I really must invest in a new DVD player.

    So yeh give that a go, try pausing it now and again. Not really the most practical solution I know, but it depends how desperate you are!
     
  7. Fjorko

    Fjorko
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    The Pioneer VSA-AX10i AMP also has an audio delay feature like the AVR-3803
     
  8. HeadStAtE!

    HeadStAtE!
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    Does it make any difference with the Denon DVD players if the connection to the amp is co-axial or optical?

    Just wondered, I have a 2800 and a Panasonic projector and although I haven't had chance to use the projector much (as it's back for repair), I've never noticed any sync problems. My collection is almost all R1 BTW.
     
  9. haujobbz

    haujobbz
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    What do you think of the harmon kardon dv25 its a good price but what about the performance.

    Im tempted by the arcam dv88+ but its nearly grand:(

    I heard that arcam has the chroma bug and thats about it
     
  10. Zone

    Zone
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  11. haujobbz

    haujobbz
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    Kazuya you have an arcam dv88 with a panny plasma so maybe you can help.

    how does your arcam perform with the panny plasma any annoying bugs like my denon,you see if its a lot better i might get one for my panny.

    The trouble is when using films which are well produced my denon has an amazing picture but i cant cope with the digital noise and lip syncing:( :mad:
     
  12. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    I've read about the chroma bug on these forums and in other internet places.

    I've forgotten where I read the clearest explanation of it.

    However , I'm pretty fussy about PQ and I must say I have never noticed it!

    I think that "mikeq" also has the DV88+ and Panny plasma.

    The two reasons I bought the DV88+ were the PAL prog scan (demo'd at Manchester hifi show last year) and the CD playback (demo'd at my local dealer).

    Stirred into action by these posts I am going to investigate.....I shall report back later....
     
  13. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    Well I read the article and then I went and checked it out.

    I used Toy Story, via component, PAL progressive, from DV88+ to Panasonic plasma 4-series.

    I couldn't see it; I am not denying it occurs but was not visible to my admittedly untrained eyes - which do clearly see the difference between, say, interlaced and non-interlaced pictures.
     
  14. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    By the way haujobbz I get the odd lipsync problem on the Arcam DV88+.....my dealer hasn't been much use though and I've been meaning to get round to investigating it properly.

    It's only on a select few discs - maybe it's them wot's the problem.
     
  15. NaTT

    NaTT
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    If your looking for a disc to test lip sync on, I get loads of problems with an R2 Star Wars Episode 2 disc. I have a Pioneer Dv717 (which by the sounds of it, it know for this anyway?).
     
  16. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Kazuya Mishima

    Arcams have the CUE ("chroma bug") to a lesser extend than most DVD players. It's not a binary thing, huge CUE or none; on some players it slaps you in the face, on others it's hardly there.

    Here's what Secrets of Home Theatre and High Fidelity had to say about the original Arcam FMJ DV27:
    "Overall, the Arcam was a good performer, and worth looking at. If the chroma bug of the Denon bothers you, you might find the Arcam a good choice, as it's not nearly as bad, and the deinterlacing performance is essentially identical. Remember also, we have studied the chroma bug extensively, and can spot a tiny amount of it from across the street. Some consumers have never even noticed it."

    As far as I understand, the DV27+ and the DV88+/DV89 have less chroma bug than the original DV27. :cool:

    I have DV27+ and had to search high and low to find a prevalent example of it in action, but 'Tron' does it. Can I see it on my 50" plasma when sat on my couch at optimal viewing distance? No. Could I see chroma bug on Sky digital? Yes, hence purchased iScan Ultra which fixes chroma bug.

    Arcam DV27 and DV27+ have a lip-sync timing option built into the DVD player; I don't know if this is a feature of the Silicon Image deinterlacer chipset or if all Arcam DVD players this. If it is the SiI chipset, you can have Silicon Image deinterlacering board added as an optional extra to you DV88+ which will fix lip-sync and give you the same superior picture as the DV27+.

    StooMonster
     
  17. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    Thanks StooMonster, good post.

    Actually, I'm a bit scared to fully investigate the chroma bug - I'm worried that once I see it and can recognise it, I will keep seeing it on discs where before I never noticed it!

    I'm not sure about chipsets and suchlike (the words Zoran Vaddis spring to mind when you mention Silicon Image) but I am sure that in the manual for my DV88+ it states that a fixed audio delay is built-in - but like I said, the odd disc caused a problem. Pulp Fiction R2 was one that I remember. When I get home I'll check out the player specs.

    Do you think I need any sort of firmware update?
     
  18. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Cheers, honestly I don't think it will be too much of a problem for you. But I wouldn't spend time looking for it.

    Chipsets? Both DV27+ and DV88+ use Zoran Vaddis 5 for MPEG2 decoding (this is where chroma bug lives). The DV88+ uses the inbuilt deinterlacer in ZV5 for progressive scan, the DV27+ uses a seperate daughter-board with the Silicon Image chipset to do it's progressive scan. (As I mentioned this is an optional upgrade for DV88+.)

    If there is a audio delay function on DV88+, and I'm sure there is (it'll be done by ZV5 chipset); you set delay to either "interlace" or "progressive" in the Audio menu.

    Current version of firmware for DV88+ is 3.0.0 (inc new screen saver) and mech is Lt76. Give Arcam's friendly and helpful technical support a call and ask them; firmware upgrades are free and part of fabulous service from Arcam.

    StooMonster
     
  19. Kazuya Mishima

    Kazuya Mishima
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    Ta very much mate.:smashin:
     
  20. taimur

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    I also have an Arcam DV88+, which I bought on the basis of a demo at my local dealer. When he played LOTR into a Panny series 5 I couldn't see any lip sync problems.

    I'm sure I read a previous message of John Dawson's in which he stated that the DV88+ already has an audio delay of 50ms built in to it when it displays progressive scan images.

    Taimur
     
  21. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    There are two distinct areas where lip sync may be a problem.

    The first is to do with the particular disc and the MPEG decoder - if the decoder detects from the flags on the disc that the picture and sound are out of sync it adds or drops a video frame as required to bring things back into line. This happens only occasionally with a normal disc and is essentially undetectable by the user. Also modern decoder SW seems pretty good here but there are a few improperly coded DVDs that seem to cause problems. I have to confess I am no expert here BTW so please don't ask me to go into more detail.

    The second cause is video processing delay, usually in the display. This is mainly caused by the PS engine (and also to some extent by the scaler) and will depend on how many video fields are stored for processing. The more fields needed for processing the longer the error - I understand the Teralogic professional processor (used by broadcasters) is up to 14 fields! The Silicon Image SiI503/4 PS processor used in the DV27 has a 3 field delay - i.e. 50 to 60 msecs - so in players which have this processor we give the user the option of adding a 50 msec audio delay in the MPEG decoder (not via the Silicon Image chip, which would require a lot of additional hardware) to compensate for this.

    On Arcam players that use the built in Zoran PS engine the deinterlacer is tightly integrated to the MPEG decoder and the processing delay as seen by the outside world is less. In any case we allow for this by adding the necessary (smaller) audio delay automatically in the DV88Plus and DV89, so the extra 50 msec audio delay menu applicable to the DV27 will be remarked as not accessible.

    If a PS signal in which the audio and video are properly in sync is sent to a display then the display doesn't have to do any PS processing and any remaining video processing delays will be shorter and most likely imperceptible to the viewer.

    I talked to a broadcaster about this whole issue last year and IIRC his view was that a very experienced viewer may detect a sync error of more than 20 msecs if the sound leads the video and maybe 40 - 50 msecs if the video leads the sound. Most people can tolerate a lot more than this.

    I hope this helps clear up some of the myths and misunderstandings on this important topic.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  22. salacious

    salacious
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    I know a little on DVD stores the data.

    On MPEG-2 streams the video and audio and interleaved. The header, video and audio all have timecode markers. I am not sure if the problem is with badly interleaved AV where the audio packet and video packer which are interleaved together are not the same timecode but the DVD plays them together. Or if they are properly interleaved but the timecodes are wrong and the player tries to fix this. If people know of some DVDs that have a bad lipsync I could have a look at the data and maybe find out. Most of my DVDs are region 1 and I own over 300 DVDs.
     
  23. haujobbz

    haujobbz
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    It sounds to me like a compatibility issue with hardware and software, why i say this is because when i owned a toshiba dvd player and even an old sony dvd and a lot of disks i used did not have lip sync problems.

    But now using the same disks in more modern players i started to notice lip syncing so what do you blame the disk or the dvd player, my denon dvd 2800 mk2 does suffer from this flaw and now when i watch films its not so enjoyable because im so alerrt to looking for potential flaws in the films ie lip sync,etc.

    Ill be honest though the arcam dv 88 i recently demoed was good with most problematic dvds i use with hardly any lip sync problems and better at dealing with artifacting than most i have demoed, i just wish they reduce the price of it to say about 700.00:smashin:

    lip syncing is a state of mind:clown:
     

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