What can i use to test my Hdef!!!

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by craynerd, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Denon1920 , panny 32lxd52 HDMI-HDMI cable....---- NO RESOURCES!!

    Are there any available yet to buy? I cant seem to find anything, what about these demo disks they use instores??!?! come on i must be able to use something?

    Chris
     
  2. lurcher

    lurcher
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    I think you can down load HD trailers etc from the web. Assume you then put them on disc to play but dont really know.
    The demos they give in store are usually from hard drive.
     
  3. wilno

    wilno
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    Fair enough
     
  4. 10bii

    10bii
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  5. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Yes, i ahev got legal demos! But is it possible to burn them to dvdr? or do i need some sort of special dvdr for hidef ?
     
  6. Neil69

    Neil69
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    Yip, you can store HD on a DVD-R. You can put it on a CD ROM, if you like.
    Ta, Neil
    :thumbsup:
     
  7. dan1979

    dan1979
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    Just look for the thread with Gladiator in the heading in this section - demos get boring real quick.
     
  8. alan_t

    alan_t
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    i've downloaded several HD sample from the ms website, but how do you burn the files to dvdr?
    want to try and run them through my dvd player to get some sort of jist of how good the quality will be.
     
  9. mickey

    mickey
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    there Is no standard dvd player that will play hi-def files WMV, ts etc only through a pc or hidef media player, can this be achieved, putting the files onto a dvdr is only backing it up , no dvd player will be able to play the files. Mike
     
  10. HenryHonda

    HenryHonda
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    :rolleyes: Guys, I don't think you've quite got it...

    The fantastic HD pictures you see in some of the better dealers showrooms are delivered from a Hard Disk. But, they're played through specialist hardware/software on what amounts to a dedicated media box. Anyone seeing the pictures from the demo kit supplied to Panasonic dealers may have noticed the two smallish boxes (if the dealer hasn't hidden them) nearby.

    In most circumstances, when you burn these files to a DVD-R, you're compressing them into mpeg format and loosing the hi-def. You can burn WMVHD (Windows Media High Definition Video) files faithfully to a DVD-R, but your stand-alone AV DVD player is incapable of playing them.

    There is one way of playing WMVHD files without losing quality - and that is through your PC. All you need is a big enough Hard Disk Drive - which is where you're going to download them to from your Broadband connection, a decent graphics card, CPU, RAM, Windows XP (or Windows XP Media Centre Edition), and Windows Media Player version 10. Output via either VGA or DVI (the latter is better) directly to your panel, and then you'll see something! (as long as the original was decent to start with).

    It's quite amusing to see that some Panny dealers have made a copy from the Hard Disk Drive straight to a DVD-R, and the result is visibly c**p.

    So, unless you've got a decent PC, and the other bits and pieces - and you put your PC close to your panel - you're just not going to see the benefit. HD-DVD / Blue-Ray aren't that far away now ;)
     
  11. alan_t

    alan_t
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    ah right i see, so basically theres no way to encode the files to make them dvd compliant?
     
  12. HenryHonda

    HenryHonda
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    I'm not aware of it - but there may be some software somewhere that can take WMVHD files and convert them to mpeg2 - but then you've lost the HD again, a limitation of the mpeg2 file system.

    As Mickey and I have already indicated, the fantastic demos you can see are coming from SFF (small form factor) PCs.

    That's not going to stop me taking this PC down to the lounge and connecting it to my new Panny PV500 which is on its way to me as we speak :clap:

    If your PC is a decent spec, nothing to stop you trying it yourself ;)
     
  13. Ditronics

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    We have HD running on a Sharp LC-32GA6E in our showroom in N Ireland, we take it from the euro1080 HD1 channel broadcasting on ASTRA ( http://www.euro1080.tv ) The picture quality and detail is stunning !
    Andy
     
  14. craynerd

    craynerd
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    ok, i`ve had a long conversation with lyris from the forum and i understand now!!


    Question is then, what the hell is a HD dvd player like my denon 1920 if it doesnt play HDdvds?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Chris
     
  15. dan1979

    dan1979
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    You can convert them to normal DVD but it's pointless since you'd have to downgrade the quality to DVD.

    There are standaline DVD decks that will play WMV-HD files like this:
    http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=96&categoryid=18

    The only other options are a PC connected to your display or network player that will connect to your PC and stream content to your display.
     
  16. craynerd

    craynerd
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    or more to the point, if there are no such thing yet as HD dvds!!!!
     
  17. dan1979

    dan1979
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    There are no HD-DVD's in existence yet, it's a future format. Your DVD player takes normal DVD's and using internal chips scales them to high definition resolutions.
     
  18. HenryHonda

    HenryHonda
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    Re the scalers in some DVD players - yeah, Dan is correct. The key words are "high definition resolutions" e.g. 1280x720p - but this is definitely not the same as HD video. You can't create information that wasn't there in the first place!

    Also, beware of Denon players with current Faroudja de-interlacing/scaling chips - there's a known problem of 'macroblocking' that can give poor PQ in some circumstances :( . I'm considering a 1920, but will probably be sending 576p to the panel whose scaler will probably do a better job.
     
  19. Andy Leitch

    Andy Leitch
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    Edited: As I kinda just repeated what was said in a previous post.
     
  20. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Dont say that! i just spoent all my cash on one!!!!!!

    What can i do then to get around this.,..i`m using a lxd52 panny
     
  21. nicholas_g

    nicholas_g
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    Your Denon 1920 is a regular DVD player. HD-DVD players (and BluRay players) will not be available until next year.
     
  22. HenryHonda

    HenryHonda
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    If you have macroblocking probs (I understand usually in dark scenes) you could try sending 576p via HDMI/Component to the panel and let the panel do the scaling - or send 576i via Component and let the panel do both the de-interlacing and scaling.

    Even though I'm aware of the macroblocking problem - and Denon UK Tech Support told me today that the problem is "..down to the limitations of the standard def DVD format.." their players just "..extract so much information that others don't, or process-out" - I got myself one from RicherSounds today :rolleyes: !

    So - a lot of experimentation on the way when my PV500 eventually arrives!

    You're not alone... ;)
     
  23. craynerd

    craynerd
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    cool, can i also ask then...i understand now completely about HD def and there are no HD player yet!

    So what are players like the denon1920 doing that are being sold as HD ready with a hdmi cable? How are they better than a normal player. If they are just upscaling the image surely they can be no better than a normal player since they are only filling in the blanks? Or are they better?

    Chris
     
  24. paulhazell

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    I can't tell you about the technical details regarding upscaling DVD players but what i do know is that i demo'd one against a standard player last week through 4 different DLP sets and the difference was incredible. If i were you i'd arrange a demo to see for yourself. I bought one on the spot. (Samsung)
     
  25. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    They are not!

    Unless you have a screen that has a native resolution that matches the output of the upscaling player (ie 1280x720) and the player does a better job than the screen there is no point really.

    You screen will deinterlace, or needs to be fed a progressive image because it is a progressive display.
    Now you can deinterlace at the dvd player or at the screen, try both you may find your screen does a better job.
    The other thing you have to do, presuming your screen is not 576x480 (pal dvd) is scale the image so it fills the whole screen and does not just appear as a small window in the middle.

    If you feed it 1280x720 progressive you bypass the screens deinterlacer, howver it still has to scale, to 1024x768 or whatever you screens resolution is, this means you are scaling in the player and than scaling the scaled image again, which can add scaling artifacts that rob the image of detail. You can only stop the screen scaling if you give it its native res and adjust the size so it is 1:1 mapped, so you may as well just feed the screen interlaced or progressive (depending on which does a better job deinterlacing) and let the panel scale, it is going to anyway, you can't get round that.

    On a very high end player or scaler it is obvious when you scale twice and when you get it right, on a budget deck you may not see much in it. But I would say that feeding it progressive scan without the player scaling would give the best results.
     
  26. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Progressive ???

    Interlaced???

    Sorry, any definitions? ...i`m learning!!! my audio knowledge is ok now, just catching up with HD and visual!!
     
  27. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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  28. craynerd

    craynerd
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    Right!!!! I`m GeTiNg there!!! Gizlaroc, i have to say your link is a heavy read but i gave it a go and now understand much much more!

    I realise: my PannyLXd52 will need to be fed a progressive image hence deinterlaced image from the dvd or tv OR it could do it itself!!

    BUT its the bit you start talking about scaling, thats still puzzling me!?!?!

    NOW i`m actually moving in my appartment so the whole setup isnt running yet BUT i had a trial run for 20 minutes, put a DVD on and the same thing you mention about happened!! I got a small window in the middle of the screen, i.e the screen wasnt filled!!!! Now cuz i didnt understand your scaling comments i still cant work out what this means or the explanation you give....so how will i cure this or what have i done worng?

    Chris
     
  29. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Don't worry, there will just be a pass through mode on the input, ie no scaling, you just need to look in the menu and turn it off.

    OK

    when you get a small window in your screen you are seeing the image with no scaling at all, and it probably looks razor sharp?

    Your panel has 1386 pixels horizontaly and 768 pixels vertically to make up your image.
    When you feed it Pal you are giving it 720 H and 576 V therefore leaving alot of unused pixels.

    To fill the screen you need to tell the screen to scale the image, it will add extra pixels to do this, how well it works out what needs to be added is the secret of good scaling.
    The thing you don't want to do is get the player to scale, adding artifacts, and then getting the screen to scale the already scaled image, this can cause even more problems.
    You are then not only scaling the image but also scaling the artifacts that may have been introduced by the players scaling!!
    That is why I said just give the screen 576i (interlaced) or 576p (progressive) if the player does it better than the screen.


    A good way to see how scaling looks on a digital display is use your pc, as long as you have an lcd/tft monitor.

    Download the Nokia monitor test.

    http://www.construnet.hu/nokia/Monitors/TEST/monitor_test.html

    Now put the resolution pattern up and adjust the H and V size, and then clock phase on your monitor till it looks perfect, you should now be pixel mapped.

    If your monitor is a 1024x768 screen, change the resolution to 800x600 and just look at how poor it now looks. This is the monitor scaling the 800x600 signal to fill your 1024x768 screen, not good.
    You are doing the same with any digital display, and that is why people buy expensive scalers, to bypass the cheap ones built into the screen and to send the screen its native resolution, far, far better.
     
  30. craynerd

    craynerd
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    AHHHHHH....right! SO...you need to both feed it a progressive picture AND sclae the image to fit the screen. Are you also saying that both the DVD player and TV can do both these things, so it is for me to choose which does it best?!

    I`ll go have a look at the manual but will there be options to send interlaced or progressive images and an option to scale the image or not by the dvd player??

    I have already read something by another forum member saying he had the same problem of this screeen with black bands both top and bottom and he said the same as me; the TV aspect ratio button is locked out in HDMI!!

    ONE LAST QUESTION then, i have really appreciated the help...if i decide the TV can deinterlace the image better and scale the image better, is there any benefit of the HDMI function of the DVD player, since i will just be feeding the image like a normal DVD player correct? and if that is the case, am i still better using HDMI or would RGB or scart be better?
     

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