What advantage?

Discussion in 'General Tech & Gadget Forums' started by ad47uk, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. ad47uk

    ad47uk
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    Now do not bite off my head, but I want to know what is so great about VOIP? I been looking at it and been thinking if it is worth me bothering with.

    I use the voice on MSN messenger to chat to a couple of people in the U.S.A and Japan and because it is free, it is great and have saved me a bomb in phone calls, the only bad thing is that the person i want to talk too have to be at their computer at that time, for them to know I want to talk.

    Now I have been looking at VOIP as a normal telephone service, but a the moment I can not see any advantage.

    I still got to pay line rental as I still need a line for the internet, I can call anyone ine the U.K for 5p at the weekends and evenings, I am not normally home in the daytime I got most of the people I know to use the same telephone company I am using, so I can phone them for nothing anytime of day. So money wise, I do not think I will be better off with VOIP.

    Audio quality is another issue, MSN is pretty good, but it have it downfalls and I can see that also being a problem VOIP and if the bandwidth gets a little low, quality is really going to drop. A normal land line phone will always have the same quality.

    Ok, so I could have multiple numbers using Voip, but I live alone, so not really needed.

    Maybe in years to come VOIP will take over, but so far I can not see any advantage. I know BT is going to change its network from PTSN to I.P, I am not sure if this is a good idea or not, I.P is not the most reliable system.
    I suppose we just have to wait and see.

    Thanks
     
  2. ad47uk

    ad47uk
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    Ok, so plenty of people have been reading the above post, but no one have answered, well they have in one way. It seems like no one can think of any advantage to VOIP, which means it is really another farce for companies to make money.
     
  3. Stuart Wright

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    No I think this forum is a little quiet because most people don't know what VoIP is, yet. But I believe it will be a big phenomenon with big price advantages.
     
  4. andrewmc

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    If you get broadband through a cable provider such as NTL or Telewest then you do not need to take a telephone service so you will save on line rental. Naked ADSL (ADSL without paying telephone line rental) should be available for (ex) BT customers within the next 18 months I believe. So there is the future possibility of saving on line rental.

    If you buy a router with Quality of Service (QoS) support then voice traffic can be prioritised over other traffic. In future I suspect many routers will incorporate QoS support and a VOIP adapter (ATA - analogue telephone adapter). There are a few of these already e.g. Vigor 2600 series from Draytek - www.draytek.com

    More importantly, you can take your number with you to anywhere in the world that you have broadband access, you can have it ring in multiple locations simultaneously. You get loads of features for free that most telco's currently charge for such as call waiting, caller id, conference calling, voicemail to email gateways.

    I think it's early days for VOIP in the UK at the moment, the US seems to be ahead with router/service bundles sold in many shops. At the moment only Vonage seems to be pushing VOIP products in the UK with the ATA being sold in Staples, but the monthly fees don't make it look very attractive.
     
  5. RekalinSimms

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    I've been using VoIP for almost nine months, and I really like it. I've been able to save at least $500 on the base fee alone, not even including the cost of long distance fees. So, for me, the savings have been the best part of it.
     
  6. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Home use perhaps not, you've made up your mind already...And you have already highlighted the drawbacks...I find sitting on a PC quite a big drawback and most definitely won't have one in the living room...

    For people like me with family in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Turkey, Antilles, USA it is a godsend...

    Then again I also have a professional interest having designed and implemented some major contact centre solutions; largest being a single company network across 2,000 locations fully VoIP enabled including video...

    Services like Sipgate make it really accessible to home now. However you will find that some of the major carriers have been running it for years and you didn't even know ;-) and definitely didn't get the cost benefits...The first I've implemented was in 1992 on a transatlantic leased line....

    Anyway the implications are immense, don't know whether you are old enough to remember the reports about this web thing ;-) Never make any money out it...yeah right....

    But fair enough, for the average normal person it is still quite a pain to setup. All of a sudden you would have to learn about networking...But let's not forget there are plug-and-play VoIP solutions as well like Vonage...

    I just find it interesting to learn about projects like Asterisk, that kind of functionality would still cost you serious money from vendors like Interactive Intelligence or CosmoCom (check out their patents), or perhaps more well known Avaya, Genesys etc...
     
  7. ad47uk

    ad47uk
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    I have seen or heard the pros and the cons of VOIP.

    So here is my pro and con list,

    Pros.

    Multiple lines, if you need them.

    Take your number with you where ever you go.

    cheaper than using a BT line, but only if you got cbale and do not have to use BT at all.

    Could be useful if you got a lot of people in the house.


    Cons.

    Quality can be hit and miss.

    Extra hardware is needed, so that add costs.

    The internet, on which the system is based, can be tempemental and when our American friends wake up, the net gets slower than it is normally.

    So looking at the pros and cons, I have decided not to bother with VOIP, as there is no advantage for me. It would mean I would have to buy a differtent router, because mine do not support QOS, but there may be a firmware update sometime in the future. I do not require to take my phone number with me and I have not got a laptop anyway. I am the only person the lives here, so I only need one line. I get calls cheap enough and some are free on my normal phone line.

    Thanks anyway for all the input.
     
  8. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    I think that is quite a fair summary....And lets not forget another Con...Routing doesn't always go smoothly either...Now that there are so many telephony providers on the market, not all numbers can be terminated all the way...Easy to rectify, pain to get anyone to understand in support....
     
  9. ad47uk

    ad47uk
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    Um, and yet people are prepared to put with this?

    I might have had a muck around with it, if it was not going to cost me money to get started, because I am interested in technology. But I am not goihng to buy another router and I am not going to buy a converter, because I will loose out. Vonage I notice charges a leaving fee, that is not very clever. If I leave the phone company I am with, they do not charge me.,
     
  10. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    @ad47uk; though you made a fair summary I think you are pushing your luck now...

    1. Yes you may want to muck around with it...You can and won't have to cost you anything. But if you want the same quality, and consistency as a normal phone you will get disappointed...
    2. Buying another router...Well I could say you should have bought a proper one in the first place. That's the problem with broadband, people buy a cheap router or get it for 'free' and think it is ok...Bingo now you want to do something else and find your router doesn't support QoS...You'll find that on the decent model/brands QoS has been in existence for decades....
    3. Converter, what converter? I assume you want to connect a normal telephone? Many quality router include these, but you don't have to use a normal phone to muck around with it...
    4. Vonage charging a leaving fee...I'm not surprised, I am not with Vonage but as I understand they do supply you with a proper Router supporting QoS, two phone ports etc....Made by Linksys (Cisco)....Remember the days that people bought their phones from BT only, or even worse rented them from BT...This is not long ago at all....

    I think you are getting a little unreasonable in wanting as much free as possible and you sound surprised to find out that free doesn't exist....

    Your previous post still has good point though, and I don't think VOIP is the answer to everything....I am certainly not ditching my BT line yet....But it is a great extension for other phone connections in our house especially my home office, and fax etc...
     
  11. ad47uk

    ad47uk
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    Pushing my luck? no I don't do that.

    Most people and I must admit, myself included when I got hold of my router, did not know anything about QOS and if we really needed it. As for my router being cheap, it was not that cheap, but apart from the lack of QOS, it is fantastic. At least it seems more reliable than a lot of the ones I have read about in Magazines and reviews on web sites. There is something about an update for my router, in which QOS is being looked at.

    Yes, I do mean the phone adaptor, You paid Rental on a BT phone in fact you still can, my parents still pay BT rental for their phone for some reason.
    When I first started on ADSL, BTOpenworld sent me a modem, which at that time must have cost about £40 to £50, I was suppose to send it back, once I ended my time with them, but they never asked for it. Now, most ISP's give away modems, ok so the prices have come down a lot now. why can't Vonage do something same? I know must ISP's stick you into a 12 month contract, but then Vonage could say to get the hardware free, you must stay with them for 12 months, if you leave after 12 months, then you do not have to pay a disconnection chanrge.

    The other thing is, I have heard that the router they supply will not work with another provider as it is locked or somethig like that, so people have lost again.

    I don't want things for free, but how are people going to try things out if it costs them more than just the calls?

    I can change to any telephone provider, any gas or electric supplier, without being changed for doing so. Most suppliers do not even hold you to a 12 month contract anymore.
     
  12. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Apples and pears mate....Just like the 'free' mobile phones, hence the minimum contract period....

    Don't forget you can try it out for free, there is lots of free software available...
     
  13. ad47uk

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    One problem with that is my computer is normally busy rendering video, so getting it to cope with VOIP as well is not the best idea. But I understand what you mean, I suppose I could try and use the old AMD 400Mhz machine I have got. Mobile phones are not Free, you still pay for them in the end.
     
  14. the_jinj

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    I think VOIP will really start to take off when (as mentioned above) ADSL can be offered without having to take out a BT line rental - then the price advantages would be more evident. Broadband is getting cheaper (slowly) so soon everyone will have access to plenty of bandwidth at a decent cost.
    I would be interested to see how popular VOIP is in places like Sweden who have great connections at amazing prices...
     
  15. ad47uk

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    BT will never drop the line rental, it is their best souce of income, they know that people need a phone line to use the internet or phone, so they are not going to stop charging for it. Broadband is about as cheap as it is going to get, the problem now is most Isp's put restrictions on. If you got a ISp that only allows you 1GB per month, then bang goes your VOIP. 1GB is fine if all you do is VOIP, but most people with VOIP uses the internet as well.

    I think Voip will be for the people with cable or people that just like mucking around with the technology, a few people may get it for the extra lines if they got a lot of people in the house. The other users will be businesses.

    But to people like myself, who gets a good deal on their normal land line I don't tink VOIP will be any advantage.
    I have looked into it, but it seemsmore hassle than it is worth.
     
  16. batesym

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    Another factor is wi-fi. Once people are able to connect voip anywhere they go, that will be the death-nell for conventional telephone protocol as we knew it. The implimentation time will depend on how the big players, google, msn and yahoo approach the software as well. This may well be more important than the actual technology. Should make for interesting viewing. Excitng times
     
  17. ad47uk

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    #


    Wi-fi is too limited, it is a bit hit and miss. anyway are people going to carry laptops with them, just to use VOIP? I don't thing so. I know you can get PDA type machines which are P.c's but in miniture, but I dont think it would be the best way to make phopne calls.

    Price will also come into it, do you think you will connect to the wi-fi for Free? Even if this did happen, it would only be for big cities.
     
  18. mucca_D

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    Dam can not find it, But I do remember OFCOJM saying that for BT to truly go fully IP they will not be able to charge a line rental anymore.

    You can connect to lots of free wifi from hotels to airports to local gruops running community based wifi projects in rural areas.

    You are missing the point a bit. It is in the interest of the vendor to keep you with in there network so if your home phone is with Bt and when youa re out and about your wifi enabled phone connects to a BT wifi spot then you have seemless billing.

    ~Not sure where in the thread someone said they had a concern about using the internet as a carrier for voice, well a few years ago this stood true in some respect, but the backbone in place now is empty really really empty, it is not the core that is the problem it is the middle and the access, this is why IP with QOS is important (techie look up - MPLS) and with IPv6 the TOS byte is going to be used (Type Of Service) so the network will inderstand the QOS requirement.

    We are allready seeing packages offered where by the ISP bills for differing use. This can be done with on the fly regrades. ie you are serfing the net when you deside to make a vocie call at the same time as downloading a large file (or upload) the netwoork detects this and changes the line to suit your needs (ups the speed and give a better qos to the voice)

    All our connection to DSL are currently set in the exchnage to UBR (unspecified bit rate) but with the new features of the networks, we will be able to have the best connections but with out having to pay for it when it is not in use.

    Currently your phone line is only POTS upto the exchange then it get put onto ISDN, when BT changes over to a fully IP backbone most joe punters will not notice. Ie seeeeemmmmlesss transfer.

    What you will have is the option to fully transfer the last mile to IP and have one service router for your home that provides your phone your TV and you internet (tripple play)


    steps of soap box, and says sorry for long post

    D
     
  19. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    No need to apologise I think...Couldn't agree more with your comments and insight in how the industry really works....Well put...

    And remember these techniques are not new, I've been using them in the late eighties to cut our trans-atlantic phone bill when the big carriers weren't so 'willing'....It is just that with the advent of broadband access it is more visible to home users...
     
  20. ad47uk

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    Why should BT goiing fully ip make any difference to the phone line rental? At the end of the day they still got to pay to keep the lines inh order and they still got to pay to keep the equipment at the exchange working. I am not fond of BT and I am now as far away from using BT as I can without going to cable, but I can't see Ofcom making BT drop the line rental. I do think the cost is over the top mind you.

    I bet Hotels do not let you connect for free or Airports for that matter? anyway, using Wi-fi is not the best idea, how may people are going to carry a laptop just to use the phone? I expect mobile phones will be made that will also support Wi-fi, maybe PDA's already do, I really don;t know, since i have got no need for a PDA or for a over price gadget laden mobile phone.

    I am also not sure about using the internet for voice. IOt is fine for things for using the voice system on MSN, Yahoo and software like that, but to rely on it fully for my main phone? I am not sure about that.

    The internet have problems, in fact i have more than it's fair share of problems, with breakdowns, systems running slow and even computers being hacked. If any of this happens when you are trying to use the phone in an emergency, then you have got problems. I am not sure if it is a good idea, BT using I.P for their new system, I hope they know what they are doing,.

    You say about having one service router in your home, that will allow you access to your phone, internet and T.V. T.V will be out in a lot of places, because there is no way the speed will be there, I can get 1Mbit and that can be a bit dodgy. anyway, all these services would come from BT, a company I don't want to deal with again. I also do not like sticking everything in one basket.

    My phone line will stay as it is on my side, my T.V will be either with Sky, if I keep it or I will go back to the five standard channels and my internet will stay with Metronet.
     
  21. mucca_D

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    My reply to your agumnet on that you do not want x y or z, will the same as to anyone that says such a negative comment, is,,,,,

    If you do not want it then don't, but stop trying to tell us that we do not want it either.

    Yes you could argue that I might be doing it from the other side of the coin, but I am stating facts (not sure about ofcom, would need to find original txt)

    BT do know what they are doing and if you understood the internet (INTER NETWORK) then you would know that bandwith is not an issue.

    And if do not like BT (not that i do) then i am supprised that you use SKY :)

    Oh and you do not need a laptop to use wifi VOIP and your phone is already using a wireless network, just cos it is not ethernet style, does not make it somthing that it is not. my point being, that you would not notice if your phone was using 2G 3G or a wifi hotspot.

    As I have said in another post ADSL2 and other technologies will improve not only the speed but the distance form the exchange.
     
  22. mucca_D

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    Just to add, that I am not biting your head off :D :thumbsup:

    And thanks to the internet (and pages like avf)more and more people are aware of things sooner.

    For the main stream, VOIP is still not a mainstream option.

    As for reliablity, some reports from other countries are reporting some issues and one VSP in the states is being sued because they did not provide 911 (999) service when they where having a hart attack. And I am not sure how they will get over this in uk (lot of papers on this)

    Oh and to help with your slow connection you may want to look at metronets piered connections

    metronet only have 2x stm1 (155mbs) connections

    where as someone like nildrem have 7 stm1 and 1 stm4 622Mbs :clap:

    or plus net (cheaper than metro for the year) has 10x 155Mbps + 310Mbps

    All speed info from adslguide.org

    For me (early adopter) I am playing with VOIP and I have just intergated it into my normall phone network, so that me lady will use it :)
     
  23. ad47uk

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    I got no idea what you are on about when you say I do not want X.y or Z?
    I have not said i do not want VOIP, I have said I can not see the advantage and at the moment there is none and where have I told anyone they don't want it either?

    BT never know what they are doing, what have not liking BT got to do with Sky?

    I would notice if my phone was using 3g or a wi-fi spot, for the simple reason, my phone is not 3G nor Wi-fi. do you really think that VOIP on a mobile phone is going to work? If you use 2.5g as it is now, then that is not going to be fast enough and by the time you pay for the internet usage, it will cost more. 3G is still not reliable enough, and the phones certainly are not. Wi-fi is fine for airports, and hotels, but it will be no good in the open. We got too many transmitters and masts about as it is.

    ADSL2 is still a while away yet, I caqn not see our exchange being ADSL 2 for years, I was shocked that we had ADSL when we did. anyway, we will still have the same old problem. We will still have to pay for the line rental, which will still make VOIP more expensive to use than the normal phone.

    I admit, that VOIP have its good points, but there is still too much to go wrong.
     
  24. ad47uk

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    I have no problems with metronet, I have done a compare for plusnet against other ISPs on ADSL guide and they do not seem to have good marks. My mate have just changed from BT to Plusnet, so far it is ok, but too early to tell.


    It is not just speed, it is realibility as well.
     
  25. Monty Burns

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    Not to mention of course, the odd very generous person living in a random street ;) :D



    Im looking forward to the next release of Skype for smartmobile so that I can use Skype voice from my phone. This will come in particuly handy at home with my wifi router. Imagine my friends calling me from the UK (free for them to the 0207 number I have) direct to my phone using Skype on Wifi in my backgarden whilst sunning my fantastic legs :D All this for the one-off cost of 30Euros (skype-in charge) and the incredibly small amount of bandwidth it will use on my 30Euro a month constantly downloading movies n stuff internet link? Now imagine this: Im in Germany (after having moved from London) and soon will be spending around 3 years in Beijing, all that using the same 0207 number and still costing my friends the same they were paying to my home phone back in London .i.e. FREE

    Its also gona be particuly handy when I get into the office and connect to the company wifi - bam! Im back online again! Wow ... good init!

    Why do you not think this would work? I can assure you that the computer/[email protected] Phone I have at the moment does. So why would my "over price gadget laden mobile phone" not do it?

    You also have to think of the demographics. The majority of my friends also have broadband in one form or another so they can also call direct when were both online (or leave a message in my Skype box). The 0207 number however, comes in very handy for the "older" generation such as my Grandmother ... I still have trouble explaining to her that the woman that say "Leave A Message After the Beep" is not actually there! :rotfl:


    I *believe* these are going to be forced to be "un-bundled" from a BT landline in the very near future. I can't remember where i saw the information otherwise I would supply the link but, this will not remain the case for much longer. As for more expensive? Does this not depend on how much its used? Im fairly sure my friends that ring me in Germany would not say FREE is expensive for them! :smashin:

    Sorry but this does not make sense - unless i'm missing the point/direction this is aimed at :confused: You actually paid a visit to an airport in living memory? All that concrete, steal, radar and radio traffic laden with interference ..... if WiFi works here then it should work anywhere! "in the open" is the BEST place to have a wifi network, line of sight baby! :)


    Now, once we have digested all of the Skype-In bonuses, lets start with Skype-out ........


    *Note: there are lots of VoIP suppliers, I just happen to use Skype so feel best referencing them in my views.


    p.s. Yes, I work in the airport construction industry on the IT side.
     
  26. ad47uk

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    Well if people are stupid enough to leave their system unsecured then it is their own fault. I know some people may not know any differecne, but there is such thing as the internet to get information about it.


    I have installed a lot of Wi-fi routers over the last few months for people I know and I have only left two that is not secured.
    the reason being is that they both live in the middle of nowhere and down a very long driveway. so the chances of anyone using their wi-fi is slim.


    Great, but it is not really be for joe public, it is for peple likeyou who travels a lot.

    so it does work, but how many people would really want it, apart from say you and a few others?


    There are always exceptions to the rule, one are one person that will find the system useful, most people will not.



    Bt will still have a right to charge for their exchange and they will still have a right to charge for their lines. It don't matter if they are forced to unbundle or not.

    I have never been to an Airport.

    I thought they was going to get Wi-fi set up at Airports so people can use their lap tops,



     
  27. Monty Burns

    Monty Burns
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    You don't realise it, you probably won't notice it when it happens but, you WILL be voice over ip on your landline in the not-so-distant future. BT and other Telco's will go fully digital. Did you notice when your exchange was changed from the big old analogue clunky exchanges to the new digital ones that sat in the corner of the same room and performed the same function? Did you notice when your mobile phone service went from analogue to digital? Probably not, you would of just replaced your handset because it was faulty/lost/stolen or just fancied a new one.


    BT have no right to charge for exchanges that are not theres and OFCOM are seeing to that. Why should BT have exclusive access/total control over something this vital that they did not buy in the first place? Thats right I said BT did not pay for it. WE did. The vast majority of exchanges were funded out of our money from our taxes when BT was a goverment owned company - back in the good old Buzby days. In the not very far away future unbundled lines will happen. You will be able to have adsl without paying a single penny to BT. (Just for reference BT has VERY recently just been put in its place, having to agree to some 200+ demands of OFCOM)

    To be honest I can see the death of landlines for telephones all together. I can see one service provider supplying your "landline" which would also be your mobile and automatically connecting you, be-it at home or in the street. Mobiles are pretty cheap to run at the moment and once they are designed to seemlessly flick between voip and "normal" mode the cost of running one would come down even more.

    This is once things go fully digital of course. :)
     
  28. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    The scenario you are painting has been happening for years!!! Especially on an International level....I've been doing that since the eighties on our international leased lines to save some pennies ;-)
     
  29. Monty Burns

    Monty Burns
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    Yup. Ive even done it. Company I worked for (I was also the telco admin) I put in a system to route via our own leased line as VoIP. Of course, the people at there desks didn't know this and didn't know they were using VoIP ;)


    I'm waiting for the next logical move to happen and for mobiles and home phones to merge.
     
  30. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    @Monty; that has happened already as well ;-) There used to be a system in the Netherlands called Kermit in the late eighties and it was doing exactly that....I think it was way to advanced for it days, so people knocked it....But the time is ready to get it off the shelves again...GSM won, just like VHS did....
     

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