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Went to see the Panny V65

Crispyduck

Standard Member
Ok, so I went to see it in action and here's what I thought...

First off, I'm now no longer worried about the brightness of Plasma panels. Fair enough, it isn't as bright as an LCD/LED (which were next to it) but the fact that the shop was REALLY bright and that it was more than bright enough in that environment, I'm convinced it will be absolutely fine in the home. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it would be better because the LCDs seemed unbelievably bright, probably TOO bright.

I played around with the settings and THX mode is UNBELIEVABLE. It really was a nice picture. The more I looked at the TV, the more I liked it:). I tried the dynamic setting and I reckon that would suit gaming (although there is a game mode too - dunno what it does though. I also tried the normal setting (which my wife liked) and I must be honest that the colours stood out better than in THX mode. But perhaps this would be too much in a home environment.

I compared the TV with other LCDs and particularly the shadow detail. There is no doubt that Plasmas handle shadow detail better. The LCDs can't seem to resolve the detail. But whether the salesman set this up on purpose does cross my mind - I don't trust any of them:devil:

Now, this is the big problem for me, and I think I must either be completely thick or just badly misinformed! Basically, I thought that the "inky blacks" of plasmas were supposed to be far deeper than that of LCD/LED. But when you see the Plasmas sitting next to the LCDs in the shop (especially when switched off) it's clear that the matt screen of the LCD is absolutely pitch black. And yet the plasma is just like my old CRT in that it is very grey with a yellowish tint.

I put this to the sales guy who said that the lights made plasmas look grey. So I came home unconvinced and had a think about this after looking at my CRT in reliteively dimmed light, which incidentally also looked grey! Would this mean that the screen of a plasma will always look grey unless viewing in pitch black (no reflections) and that an LCD will look blacker in daylight because of the matt screen.

What's going on guys - am I missing something here:confused:
 

pannyfanny

Active Member
Yes, ambient light has an effect on all plasmas and CRT and LCD. Even on the Kuros you need to have quite a dark room to see the blacks merge with the bezel and top and bottom bars. LCDs may look better in the shop but that alludes to their true colours in the dark as they cannot completely eliminate the bleed..
Once you see the Kuros do their stuff, you will be a convert.
The Panny's are good but not as good as the Pios in my eyes..
I was uttelry convinced to get a new Panny till I saw all the latest ones set up against the Pios. I bought a 6090, so did my dad.
 

Crispyduck

Standard Member
In the "olden days":rolleyes: when CRTs were the only things on offer, the Sony Triniton was amongst the best because when the screen was off, it looked inky black. This was a representation of how deep the blacks would be.

So when I viewed the plasmas in their off state, I was expecting them to be...well...blacker than LCDs. They clearly are not.

Surely a screen turned on can't get any blacker, can they:confused:
 

Siochain

Active Member
In the "olden days":rolleyes: when CRTs were the only things on offer, the Sony Triniton was amongst the best because when the screen was off, it looked inky black. This was a representation of how deep the blacks would be.

So when I viewed the plasmas in their off state, I was expecting them to be...well...blacker than LCDs. They clearly are not.

Surely a screen turned on can't get any blacker, can they:confused:
Yes it can, seriously have a look at a kuro without ambient light directed to the screen, the room doesn't need to be pitch black either. Then you'll know why they called it Kuro.
as for lcd the lcd crystals don't produce their own light and need a florescent bulb to create light. trust me when you switch on an lcd the screen won't be black for long. Bright grey perhaps:D
 

Badger0-0

Distinguished Member
My panny PZ70 has a light screen in the off state, but in use blacks are as good as the bezel, which is decidedly darker (well it's black).

I tried the dynamic setting and I reckon that would suit gaming

That's not a good idea.
Whilst I've never had a problem, it makes sense to stick to game mode for gaming, at least until it's got some hours on the clock.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say it would be better because the LCDs seemed unbelievably bright, probably TOO bright.
Absolutely. They usually are in default "burn your eyes out" mode.

The simple trick is to look at some grass.
It invariably won't look right with any telly in default.

Stop worrying and just buy one, imo :D
 

Badger0-0

Distinguished Member
I don't know mate, but it just does :)
At least it looks like it to me :rolleyes:

That said, I remember CRTs that had decidely green screens when turned off, but went much darker when turned on.

I don't think the off state has much to do with it.
I'm sat here in my darkening living room and the screen looks very dark green/grey.
I can assure you the blacks will be much darker in use.
 

airmyx

Active Member
So would I. As it sounds contrary to basic physics...

Is it not just that when you look at a powered-off screen - you are essentially looking at a big dark object and you're iris opens further (taking in more light and making it seem less 'black) ?

Therefore, when it powers up and displays a typical image - you're eye is flooded by the brightness so that you perceive a greater contrast with the proportional 'black' of any subsequent low-luminance scenes?

As it just doesnt seem physically possible than an energised (but idle) screen could somehow become less reflective to ambient light?
 

Badger0-0

Distinguished Member
I would imagine it is a perception thing, probably due to the contrast.
 

Crispyduck

Standard Member
So if it's a perception thing, then I still can't see how the V10 can be blacker than the LCDs sitting next to it because the LCDs in that bright environment were blacker. So surely it would follow that in a darker environment they would be even blacker!

I need to know some physics facts here. How can a V10 grey screen when off, become blacker when on? I just can't see this happening, which leads be to believe that in a moderately light environment, LCDs would be blacker, despite losing shadow detail.

So is it that Plasmas are only better in the pitch black?
 

Siochain

Active Member
So if it's a perception thing, then I still can't see how the V10 can be blacker than the LCDs sitting next to it because the LCDs in that bright environment were blacker. So surely it would follow that in a darker environment they would be even blacker!

I need to know some physics facts here. How can a V10 grey screen when off, become blacker when on? I just can't see this happening, which leads be to believe that in a moderately light environment, LCDs would be blacker, despite losing shadow detail.

So is it that Plasmas are only better in the pitch black?
Here's some pictures to illustrate what a plasma with good black levels can achieve with fairly strong ambient light and no ambient light, I only had a cameraphone at hand to take the pictures, I own and have owned several lcd's and not one could achieve this black level performance and no current lcd imo will perform better than a good plasma with no ambient light.that's just daft mate:)
 

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Crispyduck

Standard Member
Wow, thanks for your efforts there - much appreciated. I guess it supports what everyone keep saying about plasmas. It's just that I haven't shopped for a main TV for many years and was expecting to see the plasma screens as ink-black when switched off, and not the yellowish-grey that I saw.

There must be an explanation based on physics or light optics here. I just haven't a clue what it might be. I'm sure there is an expert out there:lesson:
 

Siochain

Active Member
Wow, thanks for your efforts there - much appreciated. I guess it supports what everyone keep saying about plasmas. It's just that I haven't shopped for a main TV for many years and was expecting to see the plasma screens as ink-black when switched off, and not the yellowish-grey that I saw.

There must be an explanation based on physics or light optics here. I just haven't a clue what it might be. I'm sure there is an expert out there:lesson:
I hear you, the pictures I took, the one from the landing. the light in that picture is shining more or less directly at the screen and the screen remains practically as black as the tv bezel. however during the day if I open the curtains the daylight shining in causes the screen to grey but the tv is only 5 feet from the window and it's south facing. the plasma looked exactly the same as the pictures when I had it in the living room i.e black. even during midday.

You can never judge a plasma in a store, that enviroment just doesn't do any plasma justice. that's sadly what most consumers base their decisions on and they end up purchasing an lcd. Don't get me wrong I also have an lcd and am very fond of it but as we all seem to be fans of crt's the plasmas are closer to crt PQ than lcd is.

consider the picture with no ambient light. All that can be seen is the movie credidts on screen and that's exactly how it looked in my house. I've just finished a three hour session of xbox 360 bioshock on the plasma and what an incredible experience that is in the dark. As a long time owner of lcd's (some of which were high end) I will honestly tell you imho no lcd can achieve what you seen in the no ambient light picture. Also what the panel looks like turned on is far more important than what it appears when the panel is switched off.

This is by no means my stab at a scientific explanation:rolleyes: but a Plasma panel consists of either one or two panels of glass. glass is almost always reflective. An lcd generally has a plastic matte finish which by it's nature simply doesn't reflect light. You have certain Lcd tv's such as some of the samsung range that have a glossy panel. This glossy panel will also reflect light but it's not glass and won't produce under direct light the greyed out appearence you've seen on the panasonics. Have a look at the old crt's, nearly all of them reflected nearly as much as a mirror under direct light:D. It's going back a few years but I imported a sony wega crt from the states that cost me a lot more than the pioneer plasma I own. The wega crt was also very reflective and took on a grey appearance under direct light

the key difference as far as I'm aware is that a plasma displays pixels produces their own lighting whereas an lcd tv's crystals can't produce light and a number of fluorescent lamps is needed to light the lcd panel. that in itself points to why an lcd cannot produce black levels equivelent to a mid to high end plasma display.as light leakage is inevitable from the backlight.A lcd is great if you want to watch tv in your kitchen or an conservatory but not in a living room in the evening when you want to sit back switch off the lights and watch Aliens (I love ripley). Until direct Led lcd tech is perfected or OLED becomes affordable I personally will still be using Plasma as my main tv.
anyway that's my stab at scientific:rolleyes:, I could be way off and I'm very tired:zonked:. Maybe an expert such as ******** will read your thread and give you the defintive answer but don't pull the trigger and buy an lcd just yet
 
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pannyfanny

Active Member
Siochain,

an observatory?

You are not Patrick Moore are you?:D

Surely a plasma would be better in an observatory as they are usually dark?

LCD for a conservatory I think you mean?:D
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
Siochain,

an observatory?

You are not Patrick Moore are you?:D

Surely a plasma would be better in an observatory as they are usually dark?

LCD for a conservatory I think you mean?:D

:D Agreed!

OP - if you want decent blacks you have to get a plasma. And if blacks are your main concern (and they should be! ;)) you need a Kuro or a Panasonic. Read the excellent reviews on this site for more details about this. Bearing in mind current prices, value for money and availability, I would go for a G10 surprisingly enough! ;)

As for what the TVs look like when switched off, well there is an LG owner who posts on this site who is very concerned about this :D :suicide: but Im more interested in what they look like when they are on - you know, displaying a picture, their main use! ;)
 

WGLOVER

Active Member
In real life there is no total black, there always being some light present.
My G10 goes as low as I need, and shows detail in the black very well.
 

Siochain

Active Member
Siochain,

an observatory?

You are not Patrick Moore are you?:D

Surely a plasma would be better in an observatory as they are usually dark?

LCD for a conservatory I think you mean?:D
Dont be so Pedantic, I was seriously tired when I typed it, so one glaring mistake is not bad, It was clear what I was trying to say as you had no problem correcting me:rolleyes:Will you change your user name, it's a bit daft, Try Piofanny, I really can't take you seriously with that name:devil: mind you I also can't take half your post's seriously either but I don't feel the need to say so despite having the urge to everytime I read the drivel you've typed:D:D
 
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