1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Well done Argentina

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by la gran siete, May 24, 2005.

  1. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    24,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Deep in the bowels of sussex where the angloargies
    Ratings:
    +1,766
    A side shorne of most of its top players almost pulled off what would have been ther biggest upset in history. It took a penalty kick in injury time from Wilko to salvage a draw.The Argies at the final bell were understandably elated and this result should send a clear message to the arrogant Sanzar nations that they should be taken seriously and should be included in a new Four nations championship. If ever the game goes professional in Argentina the Pumas will be simply awesome( maybe thats what worries the Aussies, Kiwis and Saffies). Most of those guys playing last night were amateur and a few play for lesser clubs in Europe and yet they showed a cohesiveness , displayed commendable skills and generally put the Lions to shame.

    As for the Lions all one can say is that they were awful and can only get better. Few positives out there : Wilko getting back to form, lineout ok, Cussiter looks good, J White quite clearly the best tighthead( please no injuries), Murphy one or two good breaks and thats about it.

    I'm sticking with rugby from now on:
    a) Best crowds
    b) Best behaved crowds, fans mixed and NO trouble.
    c) Players play with an honesty not evident in footy.
    d) Refs are always respected
    e)Players are not grossly overpaid
    f) A British and Irish representative side------------LIONS!
     
  2. Tejstar

    Tejstar
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Messages:
    22,514
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +1,005
    Saw the highlights and seemed like a good game, Argentina did play well. However, you must think Woodward must be upset by the draw. However, it’s been a lot of change for the players so lets wait and see how things are when the players have settled down.
     
  3. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    Yeah right! :rotfl: I doubt you got up at 8am on any of the last 12 Saturdays and watched the Super12 tournament then? The standard is still so far ahead of what the Argies are capable of, it's embarrasing. If you want to play more Professional International Rugby, sign your lads up for the new proposed South Seas Tournament and take on Fiji, Somoa & the others first. Then step up to the top level. :smashin:

    The only positive I can see for the Lions is that the British Airways strike will grow and they don't don't actually get to New Zealand at all. :hiya:
     
  4. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    24,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Deep in the bowels of sussex where the angloargies
    Ratings:
    +1,766
    Yes I have watched it and the general consensus is that it is a poor proving ground for Test sides because of the lack of intensity amongst forwards / setpieces the main reason England were able to beat the
    AB,s and Aussies on their own backyard and then win the WC.
    Argentina are definitely worthy for taking part having beaten France in France and at home.They have also run Aussies close and Ireland.A Buenos Aires side could take part in the super 12 also, At the end of the day its all about money. This is also why Sanzar wont entertain a combined south sea island side in the trinations a side that would certainly threaten their supremacy.
    ASs for the lions match they will get better no doubt about it. Yesterdays ,match was the best thing that could happen because it left no illusions about what lies ahead. The are a scratch side and as such will take time to understand each other's game.



    Go Lions !
     
  5. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    An Argie side in the Super12 will never happen, but it has nothing to do with "Sanzar worrying about losing (games or money)". It's about jetlag and French Club rugby.

    Buenos Aires is in a very awkward position geographically, in that it is 1000's of miles from both South Africa and Aus/NZ. No team would be prepared to travel there for just one game, then fly home again. It's tough enough flying to Auckland from Cape Town & staying 4 weeks.

    Unless you guys are prepared to play all your games away? Ah, no, there's no money for the visiting team from ticket sales. ;)

    Secondly, just about all your top players are contracted to French clubs for their rugby and we know how kindly the French will look on a 13 week break from contractual duties to play Down-Under. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Henry

    Henry
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Messages:
    2,162
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hull
    Ratings:
    +52
    That's extremely unfair and untrue. Argentina has beaten every test playing country in the world except for the All Blacks at some point. They are a 2nd tier test nation and, if you've been watching the tournament, it's crazy to think that they would struggle against the Reds, Sharks, Stormers, Cats or Highlanders.

    The other teams are a tougher proposition, but the set pieces in Super 12 are woeful most of the time and competition at the scrum is seemingly outlawed. Areas where the Pumas can compete with any major test nation. Super 12 extremely entertaining but a far cry from test match rugby. A full strength Puma team would easily be a match for any Super 12 team. Even my own Crusaders. Come on boys for Saturday!

    Argentinian domestic rugby is virtually amateur and you're absolutely spot on that the French/English/Irish clubs would never release players for what is essentially club rugby.

    The most disappointing thing for me about last night was the pitiful atmosphere. Cardiff was full of Lions shirts all weekend. The pubs were buzzing before the game. At the match, silence. Shocking. Cannot have helped the team either. I was up in the top deck and you could actually hear the players shouting to one another for large chunks of the game.

    I was gutted as I've been to Lions test matches before and the atmosphere there has been as good as anything I've ever experienced. I brought a few mates on a weekend to Cardiff to experience a Lions test match and was gutted for them that it was such a soulless affair.

    So anyone coming to cheer the boys on in NZ, make sure you bring you're singing voices!

    :smashin:

    Oh and they can shove that poxy Lions "anthem" where the sun doesn't shine as well. :mad: What a load of :censored: , if they'd wanted a chance of having it sung, they should've got the 60 odd male voice choir on the pitch to sing it instead of some screeching banshee of an opera singer. Still she was fit though.:devil:
     
  7. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    Ok, so because the full Argentinian Test side could beat the bottom 5 in this years Super12, we should definately have one Argie Club side in the tournament? :eek: :rotfl:

    Come on, Argentina are definately a second-tier test side and their club rugby (as we both agree) is nowhere. So they can scrum? You want to see a scrumming display & nothing else for 12 weeks? The Bulls tried it (with 7 Springboks in their pack + 4 Bok reserves) and nearly made it, BUT GOD are they boring to watch!!! :boring: Super12 is undisciplined because it is all about scoring 4 tries and getting that bonus point. Tests are all about grinding out that win. While satisfying, they are seldom thrilling......

    Ah, the Crusaders. Last weeks semi against the Hurricanes must have been the scariest 80 mins of Sir Clives life - and the two first choice Centres don't even wear Crusaders jersies. :hiya: And Henry if you think that was an undisciplined break-down performance, imagine when Graham Henry drills them a bit more........ :suicide:

    The Lions better get their fingers out - I believe their first Kiwi game is against Bay of Plenty. That is mostly Chiefs players (?) who had a great Super12, but still can't get a look-see at any All Black places. Lose here and it won't be worth going on. :rolleyes:

    Besides perhaps O'Driscal, are there any Lions players who would be guarenteed a start in the All Black side? :lease:
     
  8. Henry

    Henry
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Messages:
    2,162
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hull
    Ratings:
    +52
    But that's not to say with some support and the investment/revenues that would come with a Super 12/15 franchise that they couldn't put together a decent club side? At the moment, none of their players have a choice other than to come to Europe to earn a living. Who's to say that many of them wouldn't prefer to live in Argentina?

    But there are many facets and things to enjoy about rugby. I never said that I want to watch scrummaging for 80 mins, but equally if I only want to watch people hurl the ball around all over the place with poor defence, I'll watch the NBA. Test rugby IS thrilling because it matters. It has the sense of anticipation, rivalry and importance that club rugby can never match. It's a fantastic product and I love watching it but I wouldn't swap any of the games for a quality test match.

    I doubt it. It's still no substitute for test match pressure. If it was, the All Blacks should have won every World Cup every time as there's no-one to touch their Regional and Provincial teams.

    As well as he drilled the Lions in 2001, Wales? Please. I'm more worried about what Wayne Smith will bring to the All Blacks than Graham Henry. Now, he is a quality coach.

    They are mostly Chiefs players who have done much better this year. But it's not the end of the world if they lose. The '71 Lions lost their first game on tour and were called the worst team ever to visit NZ and look what happened after that.

    Possibly, but how many All Blacks would definitely make a Lions XV. It cuts both ways. Richie McCaw for certain, Daniel Carter (almost certainly), probably Umaga.

    After that you're starting to get into marginal calls. Howlett over Robinson? Muliaina over Lewsey, Murphy or Thomas? I can't say that there's daylight between a front five that the Lions could field and an AB front five. Chris Jack possibly, but he needs to get his finger out as he's not had the best of seasons.

    Anyway, it's going to make for compulsive viewing, but the series won't be won or lost in warm up games against the Pumas or in the provincial matches as the Lions test XV probably won't play that many games on tour outside of the test matches. I'm just looking forward to a couple of weeks on the :beer: , having a laugh, watching some rugby, touring round New Zealand and seeing my sister and my two nieces!!!:smashin:
     
  9. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    You're looking at last year's backline. This year the XV should be:

    Marshall over (any Lion) - possibly ever!
    Carter over Wilkinson or other
    Umaga over Henson or other
    Smith + O'Driscal tied........nah, Brian just takes it.
    Gear over Robinson
    Rokothoko over Murphy/Williams
    McDonald over Lewsey at fullback.

    One lucky Lion. And at forward, only Delaglio, White and Martyn Williams would be close.

    So no contest on paper, but we all know that it's never so easy on the day! :D

    BTW, I don't want to see any posts about "how great it is Down Under" and "you should have seen the atmosphere at the House of Pain last night" or anything similar, you jammy git! :mad:

    :)
     
  10. Henry

    Henry
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Messages:
    2,162
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hull
    Ratings:
    +52
    Marshall's spat his dummy out with Henry so may not play.

    Carter over Wilkinson or Jones. Yep, probably agree with you there.

    Umaga over Henson. Probably

    Smith and O'Driscoll. No comparison. BOD every time.

    Gear over Robinson. Not for me. Rico Gear's had a great season but it's another thing doing it in Super 12.

    Rokocoko's not even in the AB trial game. He's been dropped to the 7s squad.

    McDonald over Lewsey. Tough call that one. I'd probably go for Lewsey for the damage he did to Mat Rogers in Melbourne in 2003. McDonald may not have recovered from the hammering he took after the Wallaby/All Black semi final.

    Martyn Williams would never ever ever ever get close to Richie McCaw. He is a legend.

    Dallaglio's a certain starter for me.

    I think a Lions front row will be a tougher prospect than the All Blacks and I'm really keen to see Sheridan get a go. He's a monster!

    I doubt very much I'll be posting from Down Under. Probably as I won't be in a fit state to speak let alone type!

    Not heading to Dunedin, I'm afraid. Just the 3 test matches for me!!! Can't wait!
     
  11. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    24,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Deep in the bowels of sussex where the angloargies
    Ratings:
    +1,766
    ALL a matter of opinion! Kiwis love to rubbish British/Irish players as they did in 2003 ( England)and what happened there? 6 forwards shove a full AB pack back.Underestimate our boys at your peril.


    An argie side would probably lead to the game going pro in Argentina. At the moment there is a great deal of resistance from the "stuffy" brigade who are worse than the RUF were. If things were to change the game would go up in leaps and bounds.
    If Sanzar persists in its unreasonable attitude then I think the 6 nations should invite the Pumas. They could spend the season encamped in France or England and play all their matches here.TYhjey would certainly ghave the beating of Italy and Scotland and I wouldnt put it past them to win a Slam or two. Pumas world champions? A distinct possibility!
     
  12. la gran siete

    la gran siete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    24,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Deep in the bowels of sussex where the angloargies
    Ratings:
    +1,766
    From Planetrugby
    "Enough on this however - what truly emerges from this game is that the proud rugby nation of Argentina deserves more than ever to be given a regular place in the competitions of the worlds rugby elite.

    Despite playing with a second-string team shorn of their best European players and shored up by a test veteran coming out of retirement for the game, the Argentines showed not just incredible heart and tenacity, but the same mastery of the core tenets of quality rugby that has seen them defeat all but a few of the top rugby nations in recent years.

    Whether it be as part of the Tri-Nations or the Six-Nations, Argentina deserves regular competition against the worlds best to give them the opportunity to go one step further and challenge the established order permanently.

    For the likes of Scotland and Italy to be given this opportunity ahead of Argentina shows only too well that the decisions made in the halls of power are shaped purely by financial considerations, with scant regard given to raising the standard of rugby internationally so that it can truly be called the global game it professes to be.

    We only need to look at the ongoing disintegration of rugby in the Pacific nations to see what happens when we leave the worthy out in the cold and greedily keep all the spoils for a select few."
     
  13. Henry

    Henry
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2000
    Messages:
    2,162
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hull
    Ratings:
    +52
    Couldn't agree more. It was only 10 years ago that Romania, Canada, USA and Fiji were very competitive in World Rugby. It wasn't that long ago that Russia played England at Twickenham.

    I suppose it was inevitable that the gap was going to widen in the professional era but if we truly want a "world" game, these countries and others need to be included. If they could get a Pacific team into the Super 12 and an Argentinian one, it would increase interest in the game, help grow rugby in those countries immeasurably as well as providing them with vital revenue to support rugby there too.

    Argentina has done a fantastic job to get their rugby to the standard that it's at now without a professional game in their own country to support it. But with clubs effectively in charge of their players, I fear that we'll see more and more of them "retiring" from international rugby under pressure from their clubs which won't be good for the game.
     

Share This Page

Loading...