We about to hit a long term peak for AV Receivers?

[Amorris]

So I’m waiting on the 2022 Denon receivers before finally upgrading (Probably x3800), with the assumption the next crop will have all inputs with HDMI 2.1 (8K & 4K/120).

It feels like over the last 10-15 years we’ve had allot of change, 720p, then 1080p, then 3D, Atmos, 4K, HDR, Dynamic HDR, 4K 120hz…. Always a new feature coming, a format needing to settle down… Plus Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and and app control is standard now and unlikely to see much change either.

It does feel like we’re hitting a bit of a peak to me… We’ve got dynamic HDR metadata formats, Dolby Atmos etc… After this year we will finally have support and on all ports capable play any TV, Movies or Games formats for the next decade at least across the major AVR brands in their primary models. 8K isn’t gonna to bring anything and a long, long, loooong way off replacing 4K UHDs.

Or am I missing something, is some big format wise on the horizon?

 

[famasfilms]

Technology will always progress

The next innovation will be the 4d cinema technology that sprays wind/water and moves seats coming to the home, although that won't be via the avr companies.

Sound wise, the soundbar soundrail prototypes look interesting - it's a wireless sound bar with drivers that move along a horizontal rail behind the sofa. My understanding is they want them to move vertically as well as horizontally to be closer to an atmos effect

 

[Amorris]

Technology will always progress

The next innovation will be the 4d cinema technology that sprays wind/water and moves seats coming to the home, although that won't be via the avr companies.

Sound wise, the soundbar soundrail prototypes look interesting - it's a wireless sound bar with drivers that move along a horizontal rail behind the sofa. My understanding is they want them to move vertically as well as horizontally to be closer to an atmos effect

Technology does progress, not saying it’s going to stand still. It does however have peaks and troughs, either because technology matures or temporary limitations.

While we’ve had a steady release of the next format, the next thing… First, get a 1080p AVR, Then a 1080p 3D capable AVR (can’t believe I took a bite of that apple), how about a 4K AVR, oh wait, now a 4K HDR AVR with Dolby Vision and Atmos… Oh it doesn’t stop there, now a 4K HDR10+ / Dolby Vision AVR… Finished now? Nope, 4K/120hz… Oh but you wanted all your ports to do that.. Sure, another release…

It appears to me personally we’re going into a period where no new format is on the horizon and receivers will be free of the HDMI 2.1 limitations. Not to mention that AVRs can already do 8k/60 which (let’s be honest) won’t happen in any meaningful way for a very long time for media anyway. Even when it does, meh… 4K/120 is a big challenge as it is for gaming and 8K/120 is a mountain to climb, so we won’t see that in consoles for at least 10-15 years.

Then you’ve got sound… Not really heard of any big format change after Dolby Atmos, I also don’t see Aura3D taking over so even that moving to lower tiers over the years doesn’t bring anything.

So are we about to enter a very significant AVR lull. And it is a question, because i may have not seen some news on what the “next big format or thing is that we’ll all need”… But in the absence of that, realistically people buying a new 2022 AVR could be buying something that they won’t need to upgrade for 10-15 years (beyond breaking or simply wanting more channels or power for different speakers).

 

[Krobar]

MPEG-H and wider AC-4 support might become relevant (Some Denon/Marantz have this already).

I think a lot more progress could be made in post processing too. Atmos is an object based format but we are stuck in the old idea of fixed speaker positions. Future products could allow you to place where your speakers are in the room so that non-ideal placement can be corrected before room correction occurs. Dirac have said they are planning to offer subwoofer reinforcement from other speakers in a future release to improve bass response too. I suppose none of these are easy tick list features but they could all potentially offer a significant improvement to performance.

 

[Mr Wolf]

It's funny but many were saying very similar things back in 2008 when HDMI 1.3 was launched and the HD surround formats and 1080P video became the norm. I hope you're right though as this would mean longer AVR product cycles which should drive down production costs and lead to lower prices. It should also help improve product reliability.

IMO, future developments will likely include:

- More efficient Class D amplification which could increase on-board amp channel counts and/or increase power per channel

- More advanced EQ systems with PC integration e.g. the need to buy an external device like a MiniDSP 2X4HD to properly integrate multiple subs should become a thing of the past

- Built in video streaming Apps for the major streaming services

- Better remote App interfaces for phones/tablets

 

[Deleted member 901590]

Of course, another appeal for class D route would be keeping similar power delivery levels but decreasing power consumption.

Out of interest, does anyone know (thought @AndreNewman might) the relationship of a class D amplifier versus class AB for idle power consumption?

Going from little evidence, it looks to me to be less but not much less if the Rotel RMB1512 is anything to go by. Yes, an amazing 12 channels ACD at 100W 8 Ohms 20Hz-20kHz 0.03% THD, I would predict a typical idle of over 100W from a class AB yet it quotes an idle of 84W.

The reason I raise this is because, in my opinion, the main interest for anyone in saving energy consumption of their AVR would be based on the idle consumption and not the "in use" consumption which in most cases will not be much more (on average) than the idle.

Hence, why the (class AB) Denon range's ECO feature moving to the smaller transformer winding does actually make a difference.

 

[kenshingintoki]

Yes, now is definitely a very safe time to buy an AVR if it packs HDMI 2.1 and all the codecs. The last 24-72 months has been a very dodgy period but this is 100% a period of stability where you know if it ticks all the current boxes, its very future proofed for a long while as we won't get another HDMI chipset jump for a good few years.

Codec wise, I also think is pretty full features now.

I wouldn't say its a plateau, but its definitely at a period of time tech wise (not just AVRs but TVs too) where you can be pretty safe in knowing future upgrades are incremental.

 

[Barney Gumble]

So I’m waiting on the 2022 Denon receivers before finally upgrading (Probably x3800), with the assumption the next crop will have all inputs with HDMI 2.1 (8K & 4K/120).

It feels like over the last 10-15 years we’ve had allot of change, 720p, then 1080p, then 3D, Atmos, 4K, HDR, Dynamic HDR, 4K 120hz…. Always a new feature coming, a format needing to settle down… Plus Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and and app control is standard now and unlikely to see much change either.

It does feel like we’re hitting a bit of a peak to me… We’ve got dynamic HDR metadata formats, Dolby Atmos etc… After this year we will finally have support and on all ports capable play any TV, Movies or Games formats for the next decade at least across the major AVR brands in their primary models. 8K isn’t gonna to bring anything and a long, long, loooong way off replacing 4K UHDs.

Or am I missing something, is some big format wise on the horizon?

I bloody hope there's no big change on the horizon, not unless they're abandoning HDMI.

The AV industry across the board has shown little to no regard to the consumer with regard the half-arsed introduction of HDMI 2.1 and the licensing bodies subsequent abandonment of licensing/labelling of hardware.

It's a big two fingers up to us all that any screen can claim to be HDMI 2.1. It just adds to the confusion for the uninformed.

And Sound Untied are one of the worse offenders. I won't purchase Denon or Marantz ever again and risk having SU wheel out their patronising spokesman telling us, the consumer, what we do and don't need such as no more than one HDMI 2.1 input... and then they wheel out a £200 HDMI splitter .

 

[kenshingintoki]

I bloody hope there's no big change on the horizon, not unless they're abandoning HDMI.

The AV industry across the board has shown little to no regard to the consumer with regard the half-arsed introduction of HDMI 2.1 and the licensing bodies subsequent abandonment of licensing/labelling of hardware.

It's a big two fingers up to us all that any screen can claim to be HDMI 2.1. It just adds to the confusion for the uninformed.

And Sound Untied are one of the worse offenders. I won't purchase Denon or Marantz ever again and risk having SU wheel out their patronising spokesman telling us, the consumer, what we do and don't need such as no more than one HDMI 2.1 input... and then they wheel out a £200 HDMI splitter .

This is every single product cycle. I think people have short memories but every upgrade cycle we have teething problems (not just HDMI 2.1).

Teething problem at 1080p with plenty of 1080i devices pretending to be 1080p, HDR displays which in no way whatsorever could do HDR, no HDR10+, no DV, displays with no dynamic tone mapping and limited black floor/HDR capabilities, gimped HDMI chipsets back in the day, e.g. Epson 9300/5040UB running 10gbps rather than 18gbps HDMI, earc/arc issues which have been ongoing for ages.

This isn't new and its not part of the HDMI 2.1 upgrade. Product cycles always have new innovations which take 3-4 years to stabilise. We're there now.

If you have a receiver +/- display which do:

HDMI 2.1
VRR
HDR
DV
120hz
EARC
Suppoert for Atmos, DTSX, (IMAX Enhanced & Auro 3D if you must)
DTM (especially if your display isn't capable (.e.g. not an OLED or having 600+ nits to play with)

then you're pretty well set and future proofed now IMO.

Anyone could see a mile off, the HDMI 2.1 issues and teething problems. We were even warned about them with upgrades being touted and queried with no promises of how they'd be put into practice.


Sorry for the long message but its a really encourage next few years tech purchase wise to start getting some long term pieces of gear in at long last and thank god.

 

[Barney Gumble]

This is every single product cycle. I think people have short memories but every upgrade cycle we have teething problems (not just HDMI 2.1).

Teething problem at 1080p with plenty of 1080i devices pretending to be 1080p, HDR displays which in no way whatsorever could do HDR, no HDR10+, no DV, displays with no dynamic tone mapping and limited black floor/HDR capabilities, gimped HDMI chipsets back in the day, e.g. Epson 9300/5040UB running 10gbps rather than 18gbps HDMI, earc/arc issues which have been ongoing for ages.

This isn't new and its not part of the HDMI 2.1 upgrade. Product cycles always have new innovations which take 3-4 years to stabilise. We're there now.

If you have a receiver +/- display which do:

HDMI 2.1
VRR
HDR
DV
120hz
EARC
Suppoert for Atmos, DTSX, (IMAX Enhanced & Auro 3D if you must)
DTM (especially if your display isn't capable (.e.g. not an OLED or having 600+ nits to play with)

then you're pretty well set and future proofed now IMO.

Anyone could see a mile off, the HDMI 2.1 issues and teething problems. We were even warned about them with upgrades being touted and queried with no promises of how they'd be put into practice.


Sorry for the long message but its a really encourage next few years tech purchase wise to start getting some long term pieces of gear in at long last and thank god.

I neither share your fondness for the past (nor forgive it) or enthusiasm for the future.

I am of the opinion the industry as a whole, with some manufacturers worse than others, have taken the AV buying public for granted, as well as fools.

And this Is no better illustrated than by the contemptible licensing body that appears to have just thrown in the towel.

Outside of people that frequent this forum, purchasing hardware to suit your needs in order to get the most out of any given video chain is a frustrating experience for the uninitiated, through no fault of their own. It’s not even straight forward for those ITK.

Products should not be allowed to make claim they’re HDMI 2.1 if manufacturer’s are cherry picking only certain aspects of the spec, or even none at all, if the previously linked TFT article is anything to go by.

The industry should be more transparent and user friendly, to all.

 

[kenshingintoki]

I neither share your fondness for the past (nor forgive it) or enthusiasm for the future.

I am of the opinion the industry as a whole, with some manufacturers worse than others, have taken the AV buying public for granted, as well as fools.

And this Is no better illustrated than by the contemptible licensing body that appears to have just thrown in the towel.

Outside of people that frequent this forum, purchasing hardware to suit your needs in order to get the most out of any given video chain is a frustrating experience for the uninitiated, through no fault of their own. It’s not even straight forward for those ITK.

Products should not be allowed to make claim they’re HDMI 2.1 if manufacturer’s are cherry picking only certain aspects of the spec, or even none at all, if the previously linked TFT article is anything to go by.

The industry should be more transparent and user friendly, to all.

I'm not sure how I'm being fond.

I'm stating that the shortcomings re: HDMI 2.1 and its implimentation are widespread thoughout AV history and nothing new. Nothing really fond ot complimentary or enthusiastic.

The only enthusiasm is we've hopefully at last met a period where you can safely buy if all the HDMI 2.1 bugs are finally ironed out.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I'm not sure how I'm being fond.

I'm stating that the shortcomings re: HDMI 2.1 and its implimentation are widespread thoughout AV history and nothing new. Nothing really fond ot complimentary or enthusiastic.

The only enthusiasm is we've hopefully at last met a period where you can safely buy if all the HDMI 2.1 bugs are finally ironed out.

My post wasn’t a personal dig, sorry for my tone.

It is most definitely a dig at the industry and it’s clamour to rush to market products that have proven unfit for purpose.

And if it’s happened in the past, why haven’t they learned?

Like I say, the manufacture’s of hardware need to simplify and make purchasing equipment more user friendly. If a TV claims it’s HDMI 2.1 compliant, it should cover every aspect of the spec so you, me, anyone, can buy in confidence.

That’s not how it is right now and that’s just plain wrong.

 

[kenshingintoki]

My post wasn’t a personal dig, sorry for my tone.

It is most definitely a dig at the industry and it’s clamour to rush to market products that have proven unfit for purpose.

And if it’s happened in the past, why haven’t they learned?

Like I say, the manufacture’s of hardware need to simplify and make purchasing equipment more user friendly. If a TV claims it’s HDMI 2.1 compliant, it should cover every aspect of the spec so you, me, anyone, can buy in confidence.

That’s not how it is right now and that’s just plain wrong.

I don't disagree but this is simply put nothing new. The majority of TV sets sold today have absolutelty terrible HDR performance which isn't really fit for purpose yet they're still advertised as such.

 

[Mark.Yudkin]

I disagree with all those saying that there's not much to happen - we already know what's next and have a pretty good idea when.

We didn't need UHD - almost nobody sits so close to the TV that s/he can tell UHD from Full HD. Yet when UHD came, everybody scrambled to upgrade because 1) UHD was seen as the must-have improvement that everybody imagined gave them a better, clearer picture and 2) of fear of missing out.

8K is coming. Like 4K nobody needs it, but it will generate massive sales as everybody rushes to get it for the reasons given above. Since 8K places demands on multiple products, there's a lot of money to be spent on this must-have improvement.

 

[larkone]

I disagree with all those saying that there's not much to happen - we already know what's next and have a pretty good idea when.

We didn't need UHD - almost nobody sits so close to the TV that s/he can tell UHD from Full HD. Yet when UHD came, everybody scrambled to upgrade because 1) UHD was seen as the must-have improvement that everybody imagined gave them a better, clearer picture and 2) of fear of missing out.

8K is coming. Like 4K nobody needs it, but it will generate massive sales as everybody rushes to get it for the reasons given above. Since 8K places demands on multiple products, there's a lot of money to be spent on must-have improvement.

....and the industry needs a continuous stream of new features to support it's business model of making your kit obsolete in a regular cycle so they can sell you the latest features based on 2 above. Creating FUD with consumers is a remarkably effective business strategy.

 

[CarMad]

I disagree with all those saying that there's not much to happen - we already know what's next and have a pretty good idea when.

We didn't need UHD - almost nobody sits so close to the TV that s/he can tell UHD from Full HD. Yet when UHD came, everybody scrambled to upgrade because 1) UHD was seen as the must-have improvement that everybody imagined gave them a better, clearer picture and 2) of fear of missing out.

8K is coming. Like 4K nobody needs it, but it will generate massive sales as everybody rushes to get it for the reasons given above. Since 8K places demands on multiple products, there's a lot of money to be spent on this must-have improvement.

The problem is we are all clever enough to not demand UHD, however the best picture, most development goes into the top sets. So we DO want the best viewing experience and as such that often means we need to get 4K/8K that to many is irrelevant but if they are the seats with the most features or zones or ALM etc. etc. we go for those bits.

Over time they become ubiquitous and the average buyer gets the features many bought years ago for a premium. But this industry is no different Cars are exactly the same.

 

[kenshingintoki]

I disagree with all those saying that there's not much to happen - we already know what's next and have a pretty good idea when.

We didn't need UHD - almost nobody sits so close to the TV that s/he can tell UHD from Full HD. Yet when UHD came, everybody scrambled to upgrade because 1) UHD was seen as the must-have improvement that everybody imagined gave them a better, clearer picture and 2) of fear of missing out.

8K is coming. Like 4K nobody needs it, but it will generate massive sales as everybody rushes to get it for the reasons given above. Since 8K places demands on multiple products, there's a lot of money to be spent on this must-have improvement.

UHD was a game changer for me, especially video games and movie content now. I can tell a 4K disc from a 1080p disc with ease.

The killer feature why maybe people with smaller TVs are so impressed with 4K isn't the resolution - its the fact its coupled with HDR which on a capable display (a high end LCD TV or an OLED) is a game changer.

4K was also widely adopted by the video game industry and by the film industry.


8K does not have the same level of support. Its not coupled with a new colour format, its not widely adopted by video game consoles because of the lack of graphical horsepower to even do 4K at 60 or 120fps and I'm yet to even hear of 8K films being touted and even if they are eventually pushed forwards, the DI that they're filmed in is rarely 8K (I think to my mind only Passengers was?).


HDMI 2.1 was touted for a long time. What is the next HDMI standard in your mind and which features does it hold?
8K resolution is a given, as Samsung have pushed it.

I can't think of much else on the horizon to make people not feel secure in buying during the next wave of products (assuming they provide what they promise).

 

[Deleted member 901590]

not unless they're abandoning HDMI.

Interesting, and definitely on topic... would it really be a huge surprise if a new connection format that claimed to be faster, more reliable etc to replace HDMI.

New TVs/PJs start using it... it takes over... then your AVR/processor is rubbish again.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Interesting, and definitely on topic... would it really be a huge surprise if a new connection format that claimed to be faster, more reliable etc to replace HDMI.

New TVs/PJs start using it... it takes over... then your AVR/processor is rubbish again.

The contempt the industry shows for the end user, nothing would surprise me.

Anyway, the news is rather sobering (yet again) this morning and I've had my dose of perspective.

None of this matters or is important in the grand scheme of things.

I'm taking a break from the forum.

In the immutable words of Dave Allen, whoever your god may be, may he go with you.

Adios.

 

[Deleted member 901590]

@Barney Gumble I don't think anyone was suggesting that an out of date AVR was comparable to current topics in the news - I think we all respect the difference.

Please don't leave on my account.

Chatting about stuff like this is an escape from what's going on in the real world for us AV geeks.

 

[Barney Gumble]

@Barney Gumble I don't think anyone was suggesting that an out of date AVR was comparable to current topics in the news - I think we all respect the difference.

Please don't leave on my account.

Chatting about stuff like this is an escape from what's going on in the real world for us AV geeks.

Oh god no, it's nothing like that. Just a personal choice. My b*tching and moaning about AV gear is quite frankly unimportant (to me).

Thanks though.

 

[Amorris]

Guys thanks some fantastic responses and exactly the kind of conversation I wanted to help me understand where we may be at.

I guess what I take away from it beyond the new 2022 receivers with complete HDMI 2.1 inputs, the only real new additions could be more around enhanced processing, room EQ or quality / power of complements moving down in range.. All of which I view as “nice to have” things unlike the nightmare of format changes we’ve had over last 10-12 years.

Kind of brings me to the same conclusion. If you get say a Denon x3800 when it lands, assuming it does have complete 2.1 HDMI ports as expected.. You’re essentially set for the next 10 years, only needing to change if you need more power / more channels or the receiver breaks. Which considering the previous 10 years will be a welcome sight..

I do have one concerned though, as new receivers become harder to sell (due to lack of must have new features) and soundbars continue to improve.. It’ll undoubtedly become more and more niche, I suspect AV Receivers in the future even at entry level could become very expensive. So by the time you do need to upgrade, ouch.

 

[DavidT]

I disagree with all those saying that there's not much to happen - we already know what's next and have a pretty good idea when.

We didn't need UHD - almost nobody sits so close to the TV that s/he can tell UHD from Full HD. Yet when UHD came, everybody scrambled to upgrade because 1) UHD was seen as the must-have improvement that everybody imagined gave them a better, clearer picture and 2) of fear of missing out.

8K is coming. Like 4K nobody needs it, but it will generate massive sales as everybody rushes to get it for the reasons given above. Since 8K places demands on multiple products, there's a lot of money to be spent on this must-have improvement.

I sit 9ft from a 65" UHD TV and I can see the difference between UHD and full HD but as said already its HDR which is the biggest improvement.

 

[SeanBrothers]

HDR is hard for the masses to understand. 4k isn't. Thus 4k is the marketing thrust. It's a number. Higher is better! Buy now!

 

[OLEDKANG]

HDR is hard for the masses to understand. 4k isn't. Thus 4k is the marketing thrust. It's a number. Higher is better! Buy now!

Not saying you're wrong but I can easily tell 4k from 1080p on my 77" OLED. 4k isn't something I couldn't live without but to say it's all marketing isn't true for me atleast.