Watching tonights football on the 436XDE

blossom

Active Member
Anyone watching the footie on their XDE tonight.? What a cracking picture on C5 for the Bolton game. Turn to ITV4 on M&M and the picture for the borough game is nowhere near as good.

Why is this. Is it just another crappy low bit rate channel?

Just be interested to know.

Cheers

Paul
 

Blue Triangles

Active Member
I still haven't watched any footy on my XDE. My sky is still connected to my CRT. Did you notice any judder I keep reading about?
 

blossom

Active Member
Don't notice any at all now. Think I saw some once when watching Jonothan Ross. Check the background colours behind him.

But as for everything else it's just great.
 

Blue Triangles

Active Member
I specifically meant with sport. I've watched tons of DVD'S and never seen any.
 

mickymcd

Active Member
watching the boro game on ntl and tried freeview both awesome pictures on my relisys plasy :smashin: come on boro
 

blossom

Active Member
Not noticed any with sport and I love my football, golf and cricket.

Also the picture on the tour championship on SKY tonight is very good indeed.
 

Blue Triangles

Active Member
What about image retention from logo's? I've had a little bit from console games after just Five minutes of playing! It disappeared quickly though.
 

blossom

Active Member
mickymcd said:
watching the boro game on ntl and tried freeview both awesome pictures on my relisys plasy :smashin: come on boro
Actually the picture is better on the boro game on freeview as opposed to the same channel on Sky. Seems sharper for some reason.
 

blossom

Active Member
As a side issue I am trying to use the Pio's learning remote to operate the other equipment. Done all except my sky STB which is a Panasonic and there is no code in the manual for a panny STB.

Does anyone know a code that will work for me?
 

mickg007

Standard Member
Panzer22 said:
I still haven't watched any footy on my XDE. My sky is still connected to my CRT. Did you notice any judder I keep reading about?
When you say judder - what exactly do you mean? I have a 50PHD8, and it when watching football or something like a scroll bar that moves fast across the screen, it seems to wobble/judder? To the eye it looks like the text enters large then gets small and exits large (sorry for my non techy description :) )

Is this the same with all Plasmas??
 

fat dog

Active Member
The picture for both games was appalling on my 436XDE through freeview, though agree the Boro game was the worst. Lots of blockiness, bad blurring round players etc. The pitch looked more like green liquid than a solid surface. Most channels produce poor picture quality to be honest on my screen. My ariel has not been upgraded though since the house was built twenty years ago. Is this likely to be a culprit?
 

Ziggy

Standard Member
I turned my xde on for the first time yesterday and was a bit disapointed tbh, but this morning i sat in front of it and changed some settings and adjusted the screen etc etc and was much happier with the results.
I've still got £1.99 scart leads at the moment though, so i'm hoping when i buy some better quality ones today the picture both on sky and dvd will improve.
Haven't tried the x-box as yet and haven't had to worry about any screen burn/retention, as i avoid the channels with logo's and top and bottom borders.
This is really hard though, as most of the channels these days have a logo.
 

blossom

Active Member
fat dog said:
The picture for both games was appalling on my 436XDE through freeview, though agree the Boro game was the worst. Lots of blockiness, bad blurring round players etc. The pitch looked more like green liquid than a solid surface. Most channels produce poor picture quality to be honest on my screen. My ariel has not been upgraded though since the house was built twenty years ago. Is this likely to be a culprit?
Think that could be the problem. Sport has always been a bone of contention with PQ in my book but I have to say that I am very happy with it on this screen. The Bolton game last night was very good - almost HD like.
 

blossom

Active Member
StefanoC said:
107 is the code for Sky IIRC.
Thanks mate I'll try it later.
 

Roman

Active Member
As well as changing the scart you may also like to consider upgrading the cables that connect the media box to the panel. I swapped mine last week for the Pioneer Upgrade cables that Wireworld do. The difference to both the colour rendition and levels of detail was actually quite remarkable. The colours are now far more 'natural'.
 

Rapid 17

Active Member
stevedster said:
I had a better pic on the Bolton game than on the boro game too, think its the bitrate here.
I too had a better picture on the Bolton game via Sky FreeSat. Could you please explain in every day terms what bitrate is all about ? Thanks, Geoff.
 

Gussie

Active Member
blossom said:
Anyone watching the footie on their XDE tonight.? What a cracking picture on C5 for the Bolton game. Turn to ITV4 on M&M and the picture for the borough game is nowhere near as good.

Why is this. Is it just another crappy low bit rate channel?

Just be interested to know.

Cheers

Paul
Lots of the newer FreeView channels like ITV4 output on a DVB resolution of 544x576 - your plasma is attempting to upscale 544x576 to 1024x768!

What do you expect to happen? - that's right a crappy picture! In fact it's probably worse than on an SD plasma which only has to scale to 852x480.

I find it amusing that people spend all this extra money on HD plasmas and then expect to see the benefits on everyday channels like FreeView.

BTW I believe C5 transmit at 704x576 - hence a slightly better picture.

Gussie :)
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
mickg007 - do you have Panasonic JUST mode on as your aspect ratio??? This is a non-linear stretch for 4:3 material, so the middle of the screen is perfectly oriented, but the extreme ends are stretched to fill the 16:9 panel. Something moving at a fixed rate from left to right will be stretchy and blurred at the fat left and right, but will move normally in the middle of the image.

Panzer - you'll find with the Pio image retention is really bad early on, but far less so after a few weeks of running in. Just need to be careful early doors (i.e. don't watch Sky Sports news all day on a brand new Pio screen!). The judder is something I must admit you will more likely notice if you are specifically looking for it!!! Sometimes you just gotta take the "if it ain't broke" attitude and enjoy your plasma otherwise all you will do is spend your life looking for new artefacts!!

fatdog - I think an aerial upgrade will do your picture the world of good! You're not gonna get razor sharp with freeview, but a bad reception will give you the more blocky, inconsistent picture. Although bear in mind this good also be down to the area you live in and it's signal strength rather than just your particular aerial.

Ziggy - give it time to run in. When we install, as soon as the plasma is up we get it on and running loads of full screen material. CArtoon channels, travel channel, something that doesn't have black bars, fixed on-screen information bars, and isn't predominantly one colour/shade. We leave it running under a dust cover for the rest of the job to run it in as best you can for when it's handed over to the client. Even after the first hour differences are highly noticeable, then each further hour gains a little more. Picture noise settles and black detail improves. And then of course setup, turn off all noise reduction options, use normal or cinema mode (not dynamic!!), very carefully adjust sharpness down a click or two.

Gussie - a marginal change in resolution wouldn't give this result. I would guess bitrates. If there's less picture information transmitted per pixel, then detail and accuracy is going to suffer. A higher resolution panel can easily show a sharper image than a standard resolution panel if the scaling is up to it.
 

TheDoctor

Active Member
Hi Mickg007

Regarding the scroll bar, what you are describing sounds like Non-Linear Stretching (NLS). This is a function used to fill a full 16:9 screen with a 4:3 image while minimising the widening effect on the image especially at center of the screen. So the center of the screen looks normal, but the two ends look stretched. It is not a function of all plasmas and it is probably something that needs to be activated. Check your settings.

Regarding football, ITV are useless and have no idea regarding the broadcast quality of football. SKY is the benchmark, but Channel 5 are not that far behind (Quality of Spanish football on SKY is rubbish, but that is due to the Spanish broadcasters). Using the Crystalio scaler, ITV's football is palatable but SKY and C5 are dvd-like quality (I am very fussy about my football !!!!!).

Doc

mickg007 said:
When you say judder - what exactly do you mean? I have a 50PHD8, and it when watching football or something like a scroll bar that moves fast across the screen, it seems to wobble/judder? To the eye it looks like the text enters large then gets small and exits large (sorry for my non techy description :) )

Is this the same with all Plasmas??
 

mickg007

Standard Member
Liam/TheDoc

I had it set to 'JUST' - but the scrolling bar was on skysports news, which is not true widescreen so I thought it should be set to 'JUST'. The panasonic Auto strectches the pic up and down way too much - have not figured out this setting yet

Are you saying I should just live with it ?
 
O

orange66

Guest
fat dog said:
The picture for both games was appalling on my 436XDE through freeview, though agree the Boro game was the worst. Lots of blockiness, bad blurring round players etc. The pitch looked more like green liquid than a solid surface. Most channels produce poor picture quality to be honest on my screen. My ariel has not been upgraded though since the house was built twenty years ago. Is this likely to be a culprit?
To be honest guys, bear in mind that the culprit may well be the digital medium. I am a designer by trade and spend some of my time trying to improve the image quality of jpegs sent to me for lay-out. Digital tv is essentially jpegs that move. When you present it with something nice and simple, say a blue sky that fills a third of the screen, it can handle the busy stuff in the rest of the picture. But in a football match, the system gets pushed to breaking point. You have textured grass right up to the edge of 23 people in bright colours moving at speed all over the place, plus a very busy crowd all round the edge. Trying to compress that and stream it is like trying to drive a fiesta at 12,000 rpm. You need very high bandwidth to make it look good. Out of curiousity, have you tried flipping over to analogue?
 

Gussie

Active Member
Liam @ Prog AV said:
... a marginal change in resolution wouldn't give this result. I would guess bitrates. If there's less picture information transmitted per pixel, then detail and accuracy is going to suffer. A higher resolution panel can easily show a sharper image than a standard resolution panel if the scaling is up to it ...
Beg to differ here 544x576 vs 704x576 or 720x576 is not really marginal.

Try recording some DVB-T streams directly using PC DVB-T cards and you'll see the difference even though the bit rate is similar on both 544x576 and 720x576 transmissions.

Also, no amount of upscaling is going to "improve" upon what isn't there in the first place. A 544x576 transmission featuring fast moving sports action is going to look awful whatever wonderous scaling wizardry you may have.

Several weeks ago I got JL in High Wycombe to put the ITV News Channel (another 544x576 channel) on their 50" Panasonic and then listened intently to the assistant making all sorts of excuses. (I must visit them again and try the same trick on a 50" Pioneer - if they have one now)

Gussie :)
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
Gussie said:
Also, no amount of upscaling is going to "improve" upon what isn't there in the first place. A 544x576 transmission featuring fast moving sports action is going to look awful whatever wonderous scaling wizardry you may have.
That is true in a sense, however poor processing will fail to extract the maximum from the image. e.g. Fujitsu's plasma screens with AVM2 produce a far better image from a freeview box than most other plasma screens on the market. Signal is the same in both cases, processing is different. It's not going to look DVD, but one is better than the other. And this not by inventing new information, just treating what was there better.

Mick - I must admit with SkySpNews I just watch short fat people all the time. With other channels that do the same I just chop their head and feet off to keep aspect. But I cannot stand NLS, others would much prefer weird bendy-vision that lose some information.
 

Blue Triangles

Active Member
Liam,

Firstly, thanks for your reply.

Is it really neccessary to turn sharpness down? I find games look horrible on the default 0 setting (Pioneer). What about after the run in period?
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
It's up to what suits you best mate. The setting is very sensitive, I often remember ending up in -2 territory, but that was with 4th and 5th gen panels - haven't done a 6th gen yet. If you put something on with lots of closeups of faces it is quite easy to adjust. Above the ideal there will be lots of noise around the edge of face pores etc, just below the ideal the Pio really quickly smoothes out all the detail. At just right it is still gritty, but without trailing mosquito noise all over it. Again, whatever works best for your eyes and source.

For games I would flick the screen over to a different mode (e.g. normal rather than cinema) where all the settings are brighter - games always tend to look dull.

After a long run in period the grayscales will be different but I imagine sharpness will be the same. I also don't follow the low contrast/brightness school of thought. Set it up however it looks best from day one, tweak every week or so for a month as it settles, and most importantly enjoy!!
 

Blue Triangles

Active Member
Again, thanks for the very informative reply. Much appreciated. :thumbsup:
 

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