Wall mounted to beat my floor standers?

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
Background -

I'm not going to be spending any more money for quite a while, having just purchased a Lyngdorf TDAi 3400 to integrate with my 5.1 system, but there's nothing wrong with planning ahead, and I'm thinking speakers may be my next *change*, if not *upgrade* :)

I'm positing here rather than in the cinema section because my priority with always be stereo music but, nonetheless, whatever I might consider buying would need to have a matching centre and surround speakers - and I much prefer a centre speaker that looks like it's designed specifically for the job, with appropriate dimensions to sit under a TV.

So, my question -

What wall-mounted speakers would be capable of equalling or beating my current set up, and how much would I need to spend? -

PMC OB1i front L&R
PMC CB6i centre
PMC DB1i surrounds

The wall mounted speakers would, of course, we used with a subwoofer (or two).

I'm thinking probably passive rather than active, not least because I splashed out to get the extra power (400W) from the more expensive of the Lyngdorf offerings, but I am open minded.

I wouldn't particularly want something big and ugly.

In the past I've been very impressed by some Elac speakers I've heard (some floor standers, about £3500 I think), and I like the look of their on-wall speakers, which seem quite modestly priced compared to current PMC speakers, but I'm not sure that JET tweeter would sound very good off axis.

I think Dali also make some that may be affordable.

Apart from M&K, I don't know what else is out there.

Thanks,

David.
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member

Derek S-H

Distinguished Member
Hi David

You're now on the upgrade treadmill, destined never to get off!;)

This is an interesting query because, like you I also have a PMC set up (OB1i Front L&R, CB6i Centre, TB2i Rears) and have also thought about a change at *some* point.

Unlike you, I have no desire to switch speaker brands as I think PMC are amongst the best, but I did consider the Twenty series. Then the Twenty.5 series.

But the problem is the CB6i - it has its own dedicated Midrange driver and is so brilliant that I don't think I've ever missed a word of dialogue using it. Both the Twenty, then the Twenty.5 series didn't offer this with their Centres, so my upgrade path stopped right there as I never had enough money for the Fact series, which did.

I would never be concerned with replacing the Front L&R nor the Rears, but the Centre is absolutely vital and I don't think I could go back to a shared Mid/Bass unit unless it was absolutely fantastic.

Sorry, I've been no use whatsoever, but good luck with your search!:)
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Sonus Faber Sonetto sir?

LCR.

Beautiful; and Sonus Fabers.

About £900 each I think.

207247E4-91F4-4765-A064-F2F73B82AC78.jpeg
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Also, they are Sonus Faber speakers. Did I mention that?

So you get to pull 753% more chicks. :smashin:
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Those PMC speakers are an amazing surround package. It would cost a fortune to better them and if you merely took a sideways step just to scratch the itch, you’ll be changing again a couple of years later at even more expense. Don’t let the madness take hold!
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member
Even though I posted the Lyndgdorfs, got to agree with @DT79 , the current equivalent to the OB1 is the TWENTY5.26 (3 way floor stander), don't think any on wall speaker is going to match that.
 

Mark.Yudkin

Distinguished Member
Your PMC's were not exactly budget speakers, so replacing with on-wall speakers of comparable performance isn't going to be cheap either, and as you know, you'll need to factor in a subwoofer. You also need to decide if you want on-wall or in-wall.

The Lyngdorf and Sonus Fabers on-wall speakers mentioned above, for example are a major downgrade. If that's your budget though (" I think Dali also make some that may be affordable"), the quality drop will be unavoidable.

The Martin Logan Masterpiece series is one option for a quality in-wall solution.

Probably the best known manufacturer of on-wall speakers for AV usage is the Swedish company DLS (I don't know how popular they are in UK though).

Also take a look at Ceiling Speakers | Home Audio Solutions | Expert Advice and Design, who despite their name also specialize in on- and in-wall speakers, but concentrate less on high end speakers.
 

eastsoutheast

Well-known Member
How about wall mounting a set of EB1i’s???
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
Thank you everyone for your replies so far.

Please keep the wall-mounted suggestions coming, folks :thumbsup:

I guess my motivation would be twofold, or perhaps threefold -

First would be the benefit of making my speaker package physically less dominant in the room, especially if I could make the speakers fit/blend into some relatively shallow modular shelving units, which I intend to install in the living room when I get around to it.

Second, I'm thinking there could potentially be an advantage from fully embracing the Lyngdorf philosophy of having speakers that are right up against the wall when using Room Perfect. I do intend to do this with my OB1i, mostly for practical domestic reasons (it's why I bought the Lyngdorf), but I suspect this may not work particularly well, and I'm thinking some specifically designed wall speakers could maybe do a better job in this respect. It's important to me to maintain a depth of soundstage.

Thirdly, perhaps part of my motivation is that I've seen this week that Audio Science Review (ASR) have measured a pair of PMC speakers and it turns out that they measure terribly - "no better than $100 speakers", I think someone said. On the other hand, perhaps that makes them well-suited to my Lyngdorf, given that ASR found this measures rubbish as well :(

It seems to me that a majority of the comments so far have equated cost with performance, albeit with diminishing returns, I presume. I am a little surprised by this, especially given the rubbish PMC review from ASR, and PMC's reputation for being quite expensive compared to the competition. I was thinking maybe new technology has made lower cost speakers catch up with mine in performance terms. I was also thinking maybe wall-mounted speakers (with less cabinet expense, etc.), together with a subwoofer, could perhaps be a more cost-effective design and manufacturing solution.

It also seems, from the link provided by Ugg10, that Lyngdorf disagrees with some of the comments on here. If I'm understanding their literature correctly, I could sell my speakers and have sufficient funds to purchase from them the best speakers in the world (i.e. simply nothing could beat them) :devil:

"The MH-2 speakers are satellite speakers and can hold their ground on their own, but they are designed to be complemented by one or more high-end subwoofers. If you combine them together with our BW-2 high bandwidth subwoofers – along with the TDAI-2170 or TDAI-3400 with built-in RoomPerfect™ and digital crossovers – you will produce a full range system that simply outperforms anything in or above its price range". :rotfl:
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
Sonus Faber Sonetto sir?

LCR.

Beautiful; and Sonus Fabers.

About £900 each I think.

View attachment 1335156

Wow, they're nice!

I'm liking the shape. If I did wall-mount some speakers then at least one of the front L&R would have to be at a somewhat diagonal angle to the room, and I'm thinking these would be well-suited to that. I did a quick google and it looks like this is the only wall-mounted speaker they do in the range - so the fronts would be no better than the surrounds, which seems a bit of a shame.

Also a bit of a shame that they don't to an oak veneer (lack of match with my furniture).

I seem to remember, from many years ago now, that Sonus Faber are quite popular with fans of top-of-the range Cyrus stuff?

OMG, my 'oak' comment has just reminded me how I ended up spending so much damn money on AV gear. Years ago I has a set of Caste Compact 5.1 speakers, including the 'column' floor standing speakers for the front L&R, and I was perfectly happy with them - apart from the fact that they had a cherry veneer, which really didn't sit well against our oak furniture. I'd remembered hearing some PMC GB1 which sounded very good, so I decided I should get some second hand ones of those in oak. Then I thought I may as well get the FB1i, even though they were a bit bigger, as I thought I may as well ensure that I could out-perform my Castles rather than just a change of wood.. Owning the FB1i made me realise what could be achieved sonically, which, of course, led me to wanting more - so I got the OB1i with their mid-range driver. What I didn't appreciate was how powerful the bass would be from the OB1i way too much for my room, in fact, so then I invested a large amount of dosh in some Townshend isolation platforms to decouple the speakers from my room (which worked amazingly well, by the way). More insightful speakers revealed some congestion/limitation in my preampfification, so then I invested another load of money in the wonderful Townshend Allegri, and the absolutely perfect transparency of this 'pre-amp' revealed the limitations of my source, so then I got my Autiocom Signature Oppo 105.

So, basically, I may not own the world's best speakers but I reckon I've probably got one of Northamptonshire's largest collections of interest-free credit cards - and all because I just wanted a bit of oak veneer rather than cherry! :blush:
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
The Martin Logan Masterpiece series is one option for a quality in-wall solution.

Probably the best known manufacturer of on-wall speakers for AV usage is the Swedish company DLS (I don't know how popular they are in UK though).

Also take a look at Ceiling Speakers | Home Audio Solutions | Expert Advice and Design, who despite their name also specialize in on- and in-wall speakers, but concentrate less on high end speakers.

Thanks for the info, Mark - I'll take a look at all of those.
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
But the problem is the CB6i - it has its own dedicated Midrange driver and is so brilliant that I don't think I've ever missed a word of dialogue using it.

Yes, I agree that the CB6i is a superb centre speaker, with an excellent reputation. They are also extremely rare now - I'm thinking that having the full set, all in excellent condition, should make my speakers quite valuable on the second-hand market, should I ever decide to replace them.

I have my CB6i wall mounted, which is probably very unusual, I think. I found a very strong wall-mounted TV bracket with a design that enabled the removal of the mount to the back of the TV, and I replaced this mount with a cradle for the CB6i, which a local steel fabricator made for me from 6mm mild steel. :thumbsup:
 

daytona600

Active Member

.
infinite-78.jpg
 

Derek S-H

Distinguished Member

.View attachment 1335568
Interesting - but not in Oak!;)

I did a quick calculation based on prices on the site:

1 x Left = 1690 Euros
1 x Right = 1690 Euros
1 x Centre = 1690 Euros
1 x Rear = 990 Euros
1 x Rear = 990 Euros
1 x Subwoofer = 1690 Euros

Grand total = 8740 Euros.

I suppose @dazed&confused could trade in his PMC's and get, maybe, £3-4000, but that still leaves a lot to find, plus there's the cost of installation (the LCR are 18 kilos each, you'd want to make sure they didn't fall off the wall!).

I also think they look pretty ugly unless you can recess them completely, but I guess that doesn't matter too much if they sound amazing.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
Thirdly, perhaps part of my motivation is that I've seen this week that Audio Science Review (ASR) have measured a pair of PMC speakers and it turns out that they measure terribly - "no better than $100 speakers", I think someone said. On the other hand, perhaps that makes them well-suited to my Lyngdorf, given that ASR found this measures rubbish as well :(
I really would not listen to ASR, or at least take it with a bucket of salt. The methodology is completely myopic. When most of the reviews don’t even mention actually listening to the item being tested, then you know they’ve rather lost perspective. If that wasn’t enough, there have been recent examples where the testing approach has changed when testing equivalent bits of kit, which completely undermines the credibility of the results (Arcam AVR390 and AVR850 for example).

If you really want to put your mind at rest find out what the £100 speakers are that tested as well as the PMCs, and buy yourself a pair to compare. I think you’ll conclude instantly that ASR is on a different planet.

Anyway back to the topic - PMC themselves do the ‘Wafer’ on wall speaker range. Replacing your rears with those might be decent option to reclaim a bit of space and hopefully keep the tonal character of the sound the same as the front. But I seriously think you can only go downhill by replacing your front three with on-walls.

Lyngdorf’s on wall speakers may well beat the competition at their price point, but look at what that price point actually is. They’ve come up with a no doubt great solution, but it’s not the only one or always best. Look at the Steinway Lyngdorf range - loads of seriously good and astronomically expensive freestanding speakers.

On/in-wall speakers is a very valid approach, but it’s very hard to see you bettering your existing set-up without spending significantly more money. Especially on the stereo side.
 
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Derek S-H

Distinguished Member
Those Lyngdorf in-wall speaker prices aren't too bad, actually:


But I'm pretty sure they're more set up for Home Cinema than stereo and I know David loves his music.

It's a shame that he doesn't have the space for separate Home Cinema and music systems, because it really does make decisions like this so much easier.
 

3rdignis

Active Member

3rdignis

Active Member

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
So, I've decided to keep my PMCs as long as I'm living here, I think.

On the weekend I finally got around to pushing them right up against the wall, and running a new Room Perfect routine, and they are sounding fine. At first the depth of the 'soundstage' appeared to have completely flattened but the depth has gradually returned as my brain has readapted itself to the three dimensional illusion I like, to the extent that I'm happy to report I can now see through walls! Widthways the sound stage has actually extended and become more evenly balanced, due to better imagery from the right speaker that has an open dining space to its side.

A rather surprising effect is that some 'life' has returned to the sound. When I initially set up Room Perfect I was impressed by the improved clarity and control throughout the frequency response but I also felt I'd lost something that was hard to put my finger on. I wouldn't say the system wasn't engaging - I was staying up to silly hours, unable to tear myself away from working my way through my albums - yet I felt an underlying, unsettling craving for a better emotional connection. What I now put this down to, rightly or wrongly, is that Room Perfect had cost me some of the positive benefit of the response from my room. Putting the speakers up against the wall (and re-running RP) seems to have returned some room response, in a good way, and made my hand and foot tap again.

So, I thought to myself, my hifi journey has come to an end.

Then I looked over to the new place where my speakers need to go, and I happened to turn around toward the wall behind me, and I thought hey, I could fit a projector in there, and a screen over there! Oh dear.............
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
What I now put this down to, rightly or wrongly, is that Room Perfect had cost me some of the positive benefit of the response from my room.

Its quite possible that having moved the speakers close to wall, the DRC measurement can no longer separate the some reflections from direct sound and therefore can no longer apply the same degree of correction.
 

martin 39

Well-known Member
Im having a similar problem i had to move from my b&w floor speakers to wall i went with monitor audio apex. I had sort of lost interest but the bug is back. If i had room i would go back to floor standing speakers but im told i dont have room. Pmc do there own on wall wafer range which look really good. I personally want a pair of gb1i but they would be in corners up buy the wall. Focal do a good range as well. I will probably have to settle for apex a40s
 

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