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VW10HT v HT200/250 v JVC G-15 with HTPC and Iscan

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by minimivic, Apr 18, 2001.

  1. minimivic

    minimivic
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    I'm doing an interesting experiment tommorow.

    Shootout between LCD, DLP, D-ILA and between Progressive DVD, HTPC ,and Iscan pro.
    Boy am I looking forward to all the fun. The VW10HT has ben running in our dem room for about 18 months now and have been very pleased with the results. Resently I introduced the HTPC to give a 720P resolution which I must say helped lots to picture detail and colour balance.
    The JVC-G15 arrived today and I have had fun all day setting up and calibrating it. On standard DVD the picture is acceptable but by no means good. But through the HTPC at 1360 x 768 it is truely stunning, the picture detail is up there with a good CRT although the black level is still nowhere near as good. The basic projector was up and running in about 30 mins with a very acceptable picture indeed, far easier than CRT's :D
    The only real problem I have is the Jet engine like fan noise, given the choice I would build a hush box or projector room to house it in.
    Next is the HT200 or 250 that will be here tomorrow with Alan.

    I'll post a full description of the results in a few days.

    Sharky

    Forgeaudio
     
  2. Jenz

    Jenz
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    Sharky, looking forward to the results. Please also let us know the Demo Discs used (and please don't use all Animation).
     
  3. minimivic

    minimivic
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    Jenz,

    What would you like me to loot at for you?
    I've got a few favourites, and no I dont use animation if I can help it.

    Sharky

    Forgeaudio
     
  4. The Spaniard

    The Spaniard
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    Debbie does Dallas?....great for skin tones!

    Regards

    The Spaniard
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    It should be interesting. Like to be there..


    Look forward to the results.

    I'd be interested to know whether you are using a standard colour temp on the Sony or whether you've been in and played with the custom temps and 3d gamma.

    If you have it can you play the scene from "For The Love of the Game" where Kevin talks to his ex in the bar then watches her from outside the window of her flat. This is great for black level detail, then it moves to a scrolling set of "0"'s which shows up motion judder very well and finally on to Kevin talking to his buddy on the mound which shows up colour well as they both look sunburnt/jaundiced if it's not quite right....

    Cheers,

    Gordon
     
  6. Jenz

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    Dark City is a killer app for contrast, blacks and jaggies. The opening scene is terrific for this.
     
  7. minimivic

    minimivic
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    What a day !!!

    The shoot out between all the projectors went well, the tests were carried out using Vutec Vu-Flex Pro sceen 1.3 gain, Pioneer 737 progressive scan DVD player with both interlaced or progressive settings,the Silicon image Iscan Pro, or the HTPC which runs a 1.1 Ghz Athlon, G-force 2 Pro graphics card, Power DVD, and Powerstrip to give custom resolutions.

    First off the Sony VW10HT which has been running for 18 months now, the sony has been set up calibrated as best we can using RGB gain and bios adjustments and Video Essentials or Referenz DVD test discs.
    The image has always looked fine with good colour uniformity across the screen although black level has never been a strong point.
    With interlaced DVD the picture is Ok, jaggies are visible on many scenes. With the introduction of progressive scan the image is significantly improved with better colour, improved black level and detail within the black.
    The Iscan pro improved the image again with less visable jagged edges and fast moving scenes were smoother, although the image appeared softer.
    Next the HTPC running 1184 x 666 resolution the projector see's a 720p signal. Best source by far, gives a more film like appearence and virtually no signs of any edging problems. Colour and black levels are also improved with more flexable colour control options.

    The JVC G15 D-ILA projector appears at first glance to be a vast improvment on the VW10, the picture structure is far improved over LCD and black levels are superior, although not as much as I would have hoped for.
    Forget running this projector with normal interlaced DVD, progressive is a minimum but it doesnt really show any good results until the PC is connected and running at 1360 x 768p the picture is just superb.
    I found the colour very difficult to get correct, and couldn't set the brightness and contrast as I would have liked, but the image quality is excellent and no visalbe line structure from about 4' away.
    Its a shame about the Fan noise, but with the right installation, correct scaleing and set up this projector would be very good.

    I've never been a great fan of DLP and the rainbow effect has driven me crazy in the past, I always walk away with a headache and eye strain.
    The Sim2 HT200 surprised me to how good the image quality actually is for 800 x 600. The progressive DVD showed signs of jagged edges and panning of the " Gladiator I salute you " scene from the film Gladiator had the background town moving all over the place.
    introduce the Iscan and most of these problems disappear and panning being far smoother. The rainbow effect also seemed to reduce ( dont know how ).
    The HTPC running 800 x 600 again was an improvement and image detail far crisper than the 480p from the Iscan pro. We tried 1024 x 768 and let the projector downscale to native 800 x 600 with good results but not a vast improvement over 800 x 600.
    The colours were well balanced with reds showing as red and black is a definite improvement over the Sony, Its mainly noticable with the detail in the black level.
    Overall this projector is excellent and I suggest that anyone with doughts about this unit get and see one demonstrated well. It's well worth it!!

    As a bonus the HT250 was brought along, the projector had a few issues that had not been finalised but the added resolution sharpened up the image. The iscan did a very good job, but this projector needed to see a better resolution so the PC fed it 1280 x 720p which looked stunning.
    The picture was instantly transformed, the detail has to be seen to be believed, the improved depth added another dimension to the picture. Everything that you wanted to see was there, and sharp.
    The interesting thing was the image didn't soften as much as the other projectors did when fed with the HTPC.
    I feel the Black level wasn't as good as the HT200, maybe this would be sorted out in the future, or maybe just needed more time and setting up.
    While it was here a software upgrade was performed to try and get rid of some of the issues, how easy it was to do, download and install to projector, nice. At least you know if there a problem in can hopefully be fixed quickly and easily.
    The rainbow effect on the HT250 is minimal, and there is talk of a new colour wheel in the pipeline ( who knows when!! ) which should help even more.

    Conclusion:

    Check them out for yourselves, but get a good demo!. All the projectors have good and bad points. One may suit you or your installation better than the others.
    One thing for sure is the better the source the better the picture you will get, the Iscan Pro is a great easy to set up unit that improves all the above projectors, but the HTPC when set up correctly is just awsome.
    I would have loved to have had a more expensive Scaler ( farouga or likes ) to compare at the same time, but hey "Rome wasn't built in a day".

    Hope this wasn't too boring,I tried to cut it down a bit, let me know what you think! or if you have any questions :D

    Sharky

    forgeaudio.co.uk
     
  8. tiberious

    tiberious
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    Nice one Sharky !

    Did you run the Iscan pro with PAL as well as NTSC sources ? (was pal progressive noticeably better than ntsc prog ?)

    I am running the HT200 with a 7ft Vutech 16:9 screen , currently with a pioneer 626 via s-video. Great - but I know it will be better with Iscan/htpc/pro scan dvd - question is , which ?

    I am awaiting the birth of the Panamorph lens, which will mean I can effectively run the Projector at 800x600 , and would prefer the plug and play functionality of a DVD player to go with it. With the advent of Pal progressive and recordable dvd , I am reluctant to jump just yet , but I`m aware you can wait forever in this game !!

    Do you think the I-scan pro , used with the above would do the job ?. As the Panamorph softens the picture slightly (allegedly !),I am nervous of a further softening from the I-scan - also, did you have any lip - sync problems ?

    Do you see any great benefit in HTPC over pro scan dvd player (pal progressive , hopefully without the combing problems of the 737) used with a Panamorph ?

    I have a few dvds which are awful on jaggies -mostly non anamorphic (try the region 1 version of the Great Escape - the roofs of the huts are terrible, as are the German uniforms - having said that, the overall quality is pants too !), and I look forward to improving this.
     
  9. minimivic

    minimivic
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    Hi,

    We used both Pal and NTSC Disc's for the testing. Armagedon, Gladiator ( R1 and 2 ), Termenator 2, Starship troopers and fifth Element were the main films used. The difference between Pal and NTSC is not great and I think that I prefered the NTSC Gladiator over the Pal.

    The Iscan is noticably better than the Pioneer Progressive but I must admit that the difference between Pal progressive and NTSC progresive was not high on my agenda, maybe at a later date!!!

    If you can be bothered with the setting up and agro involved with a HTPC go for it, the results were worth it. Otherwise go for the Iscan using component if possible.

    I too am waiting to see what a paramorph will do but maybe it will be better when 16:9 DLP chips are released in September ( Maybe ).

    There was no obvious lip sync problems, and I dont think the softening involved with the Iscan is too much to worry about. But what it will be like combined with the paramorph I wouldn't know.

    Easiest thing to do is try an Iscan or if you can an HTPC. I have taken the PC to a few customers and shown what it can do. The Sony G70 CRT at 1280 x 960p was just stunning. The customer still hates me I think, because he doesn't want a HTPC but cant afford a farouga.

    Hope this helps.

    Sharky

    forgeaudio.co.uk
     
  10. tiberious

    tiberious
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    Been away a few days - thanks for that Sharky.

    Sorry to be a pest, but did you hook the DVD to the ISCAN via Component , then feed direct to the HT200 ? - I would guess yes, if so, did you connect vga output to Component in on the HT200, and if so, is this lead included with the I scan, or a separate buy ?(if so where to buy , and how much?).

    Leaning towards this option - maybe linked to a new Interlaced player (might look at the new Tosh210).

    Thanks again - good info.

    -Oh , by the way - I`m going to take the plunge and get a DVHS recorder - no reason why this shouldnt be fine fed thru the pro?

    Also, presume audio side of all components are fed to receiver, with all video direct from Iscan to HT200 ?

    Doh !! - must...stop...asking...questions....
    Argggh !!
     
  11. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Tiberious,
    The connection from iScan to HT200 is 15pin VGA to 15pin VGA. Input no.7 from HT200 menu - Graphics Input.

    There is no iScan to projector cable supplied with the box. You can buy 15pin VGA cables off the shelf at most computer stores. Lengths vary from 1.5 to 5mtrs. Longer cables are usually custom made.

    If your projector is ceiling mounted and you already have composite, S, component/RGB cables installed, you could park the iScan on/near the projector and use a short VGA cable. This means no rewiring required and it would take about 5 mins to install the iScan.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards
     
  12. tiberious

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    Thanks Chris - that really makes life easy !!

    - Can these bad boys be bought/demo `d via AV shops , or only direct from OWL ? (I`d like to see one in action before taking the plunge !)
     
  13. tiberious

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    ....Sorry , but I think I am right in thinking the Pro outputs 576p (what is the res here - 768x576 ?), I am working on the assumption that if I use an anamorphic lens, I would be running the HT200 at its native rate of 800x600 ,so this would give the same benefits as HTPC, yes ?? Obviously, until the lens arrives, I cant even get full benefit of 480p(640x480 ?)for 16:9.

    - I still get a bit confused by screen resolution for 480p,576p,720p etc !!! - would be good to nail it once and for all.

    Thanks again !

    p.s - still love this machine !!
     
  14. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Er...not quite,

    I know this sounds obvious but the anamorphic lens distorts the image optically, this means better resolution than HTPC if you look at how many pixels are active on the DLP panel. 1.85:1 anamorphic PAL would drive almost the entire panel.

    A HTPC system might derive more apparent resolution from a DVD by clever processing, but eventually it would have to be displayed in a letterbox shaped portion of the DLP panel. This would be a progressive scan image though, so it would display in 480p for NTSC.

    Regards
     

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