VR Gaming Chat.

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Pimax will have Hand tracking and Eye tracking before the Rift S it's ridiculous. Yes they actually announced it with real hardware. DFR coming to Pimax pretty soon too it ridiculous. 4k per eye ridiculuous. Even..........wait for it.....................over ear headphones!!! Its ridiculous.

Oculus are so far ahead LMAO.
Like i've said, I couldn't give a monkey's about hand tracking. Yes, Pimax have announced it but it's going to cost you an extra $170 for the hardware. And because you need extra hardware for it you won't find that many devs supporting it.

Valve with their best selling most highly rated VR game of all time - its ridiculous. Oculus are so far ahead with their Beat Saber buy outs.
I didn't mention games, I said software. I was referring to the likes of ATW and ASW and the hand tracking that doesn't need you to buy add-on hardware. Sure, Pimax MIGHT get there first, but given the power that Oculus and Facebook have with their Machine Learning farms it'll probably be better at launch and will improve faster.

And as for the Pimax headsets, they're almost unanimously considered to be a bit crap so far. Not that I need to tell you because you abandoned yours pretty sharpish. I was also talking about R&D anyway and used that glasses headset as an example, but the Half Dome prototype is also far ahead of anything that has been shown by competitive headset manufacturers with its varifocal feature, and when they DO eventually release it the thing will have (probably) 4K displays, eye tracking, foveated rendering and the varifocal feature at a reasonable price (£399-£499 including controllers) rather than having it cost a couple of grand once you take the Lighthouses and controllers into account.

And if you want to mention games, Oculus/Facebook have released the most AAA quality games and experiences in the business, even more than Sony. Sure, Half Life Alyx is good, but Valve have only released two AAA quality games so far, and one of those is a demo. One (or maybe one and a half!) swallow doesn't make a Summer. Oculus, on the other hand, have an entire flock of them and the sun continues to shine EVERY YEAR with another two on the way this year.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Why if Oculus had this amazing prototype did they decide to release the crippled Rift S? Either they didn’t have anything worth releasing at the time or they strategically dumbed down the RiftS to give Quest the head start. Either way it’s not looking good for Oculus and PCVR.

Now as most of your favourite games are on Steam and Oculus cripples their own store to stop 55% of the VR community from playing their exclusives they are panting the hardware front from one of weakness and the software front from one of weakness too.

Valve goes from strength to strength with Index to Alyx to pulling all the Oculus people into the Steam Eco system. Valve are playing the master game with Reverb G2 in the wings and Pimax with the 8KX.

HTC have retaken the crown when it comes to market share and Valve can’t make enough Indexes.

You better pray Oculus pull something out of the bag because I’m not shedding any tears watching this unfold.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Why if Oculus had this amazing prototype did they decide to release the crippled Rift S? Either they didn’t have anything worth releasing at the time or they strategically dumbed down the RiftS to give Quest the head start. Either way it’s not looking good for Oculus and PCVR.

Now as most of your favourite games are on Steam and Oculus cripples their own store to stop 55% of the VR community from playing their exclusives they are panting the hardware front from one of weakness and the software front from one of weakness too.

Valve goes from strength to strength with Index to Alyx to pulling all the Oculus people into the Steam Eco system. Valve are playing the master game with Reverb G2 in the wings and Pimax with the 8KX.

HTC have retaken the crown when it comes to market share and Valve can’t make enough Indexes.

You better pray Oculus pull something out of the bag because I’m not shedding any tears watching this unfold.
According to leaks Facebook delayed the launch of the CV2/Half Dome because it would have been too expensive and opted for the Rift S. Everything that Facebook does they do for the good of VR. More headsets have been sold since they released the Rift S than would have been sold if they released a headset costing a grand like Valve. And more headsets means more developer support and more developer support means more headsets getting sold in the future

And as I've already mentioned some of those games you're referring to not only wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for Facebook funding them but they ALSO wouldn't be on Steam if Facebook had done the nasty and forbidden it as a condition of their funding. Again, more top quality games available equals more headsets sold equals more developer support equals more headsets sold.

And HTC haven't retaken anything. Rift headsets still have the largest marketshare because not every Rift headset owner uses Steam, as well as the Rift and Rift S should be grouped together because they're of the same product line. They're both Oculus Rift headsets. Same goes for the HTC Vive, the Vive Pro and the Vive Cosmos too The Rift and Rift S and the Vive, Vive Cosmos and Vive Pro are from the same product lines. The Vive product line has 29.47% and the Rift product line is the current leader with 37.47%.

When Oculus release the Rift 2 in a couple of years that will ALSO count as a Rift headset, and the numbers should be added to the Rift and Rift S in the 2022 Steam Surveys. Same for the Valve Index 2 and the Valve Index and the Vive 2 and the other Vive headsets (assuming that HTC can still keep their lights on of course!).
 

ArmitageShanks

Well-known Member
Yawn. Wake me up when there's actually something brought to market.
 

huxley

Member
Yawn. Wake me up when there's actually something brought to market.
it’s all in the tech proving stages and will be for some time.
I see leap Employees have been snapped up by Apple and Facebook.
The move to lifestyle and social is beginning to take shape.

 

Atmos

Well-known Member
According to leaks Facebook delayed the launch of the CV2/Half Dome because it would have been too expensive and opted for the Rift S. Everything that Facebook does they do for the good of VR. More headsets have been sold since they released the Rift S than would have been sold if they released a headset costing a grand like Valve. And more headsets means more developer support and more developer support means more headsets getting sold in the future

And as I've already mentioned some of those games you're referring to not only wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for Facebook funding them but they ALSO wouldn't be on Steam if Facebook had done the nasty and forbidden it as a condition of their funding. Again, more top quality games available equals more headsets sold equals more developer support equals more headsets sold.

And HTC haven't retaken anything. Rift headsets still have the largest marketshare because not every Rift headset owner uses Steam, as well as the Rift and Rift S should be grouped together because they're of the same product line. They're both Oculus Rift headsets. Same goes for the HTC Vive, the Vive Pro and the Vive Cosmos too The Rift and Rift S and the Vive, Vive Cosmos and Vive Pro are from the same product lines. The Vive product line has 29.47% and the Rift product line is the current leader with 37.47%.

When Oculus release the Rift 2 in a couple of years that will ALSO count as a Rift headset, and the numbers should be added to the Rift and Rift S in the 2022 Steam Surveys. Same for the Valve Index 2 and the Valve Index and the Vive 2 and the other Vive headsets (assuming that HTC can still keep their lights on of course!).
The only reason Devs sell exclusives on Oculus Home is because Facebook offered them large sums of money. Epic got $10million for Robot Recall that far more money they would make in game sales.

If Oculus were for the good of VR then why do they turn away the majority of VR users?

If Oculus make headsets for the good of VR why did they remove headphones and IPD adjustment?

If Oculus was for the good of VR why did they buy an already established VR Dev and then remove there game from Arcades?

Oculus are strangulating the VR and the only reason the RiftS sells is because they undercut every other headset manufacturer which they’ve done from day one.

There’s nothing to stop anyone buying a RiftS and using it exclusively on Steam. So you can’t automatically claim there’s a large uncounted number of RiftS users. I can equally claim there’s an huge number of RiftS users who neverbuy anything from the Oculus store.

Can anyone tell me a person who has never used their Oculus headset on Steam? I bet there isn’t one because it’s so easy to use StreamVR. The complete opposite can be said for people using Vive headsets on Oculus Store because they don’t support them.

So no Oculus are no doing anything to support VR but they are using Facebook money year on year to prop up their store, bribe Devs and price their headsets to undercut the market only to benefit their own ambitions.

Oculus could make two headsets one with all the add ins. They could invest in their own Studio rather than buy others. They could support all headsets.

But it’s all coulda, woulda, shoulda which is why every Oculus founder has now left and the Oculus dream is over.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
Hand tracking for Rift S!!! That is so far ahead of everyone else that it's ridiculous!!! No-one else could ever do that but Facebook!!!
I get it . You think oculus are the destroyers of VR. I myself am no Facebook apologist however as of today and for the last 12 months Facebook DO have the best inside out tacking, they have the best software compensation for framerate loss in ASW2 and as of right now have (I stand to be corrected on this) the only "mainstream" (in so far as anything in VR could be considered mainstream) controller less hand tracking.
Others may have things in the pipe but I gave up trusting anything pimax said long ago.
Imo the area where oculus is lacking is in the hmd itself and this sucks but it's not that the rift S or quest are rubbish ... Not for the cost segment they are in, it is just that they don't really have a headset with premium specs for a premium price.... Which is a real shame.
So sure let's not blow smoke up their asses but equally let's not be dishonest and pretend they are not pretty innovative / doing well in some areas. Their prototypes are also pretty cool.... I just hope they release the damn things
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Microsoft had full body tracking years ago with Kinect so no Oculus are not ahead of anyone. The fact that Kinect was pushed hard and still bombed is an indicator how virtual wheels and joysticks don’t work. So in games where you need to hold a gun hand tracking is no the best solution. Knuckles has both finger tracking and has something to hold wether it’s a gun or ladder rungs. 99% of games will always need a controller so hand tracking is low on the priority of a good VR experience.
 

huxley

Member
Oculus are the market leaders in VR at present, no arguments over monthly surveys or who said what to who is going to change that at present. As much as a lot of us dislike Mr Zs company you can’t ignore the fact that they seem to be pushing the tech harder than a lot of others. Cheap hardware in the hands of the masses with minimal fuss, the Quest.
With regards to software you only have to look daily at the likes of uploadvr to see games being included in the Quest line up.

With regards to steam vr use for Oculus users. Yes a lot of rift and riftS as well as Quest user are on steam VR. But with the quest sales going through the roof I would imagine a lot more are not.

this is progress.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Oculus are the market leaders in VR at present, no arguments over monthly surveys or who said what to who is going to change that at present. As much as a lot of us dislike Mr Zs company you can’t ignore the fact that they seem to be pushing the tech harder than a lot of others. Cheap hardware in the hands of the masses with minimal fuss, the Quest.
With regards to software you only have to look daily at the likes of uploadvr to see games being included in the Quest line up.

With regards to steam vr use for Oculus users. Yes a lot of rift and riftS as well as Quest user are on steam VR. But with the quest sales going through the roof I would imagine a lot more are not.

this is progress.
Market leaders in which area? Game sales, store sales, headset sales? Stand alone sales?

Oculus Stores best seller - Beat Saber $3 millIon
Steam Stores best seller - HL Alyx $ 40 million.

Who’s pushing VR more? From where I sit I see Valve with the best headset, best selling VR game, best controllers and store open to all headsets?

When PSVR 2 comes along Oculus will lose lot of of future sales because Sony with have a very attractive VR package. Oculus will be even more reliant on Quest. This will be their final stand.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
PSVR 2 will put Sony on an equal footing as Oculus with regards to controller and tracking. They will be the true VR kings because Facebook can’t touch them when it comes to console volume or exclusive and marketing.

SteamVR will continue to be the No1 store for PCVR with several headsets to chose from.

Qualcomm will continues to push their stand-alone platform so we’ll see more manufacturers grab that section if the market in the future.

Microsoft and Apple will come in with affordable AR headsets.

So I don’t see Oculus being leaders in any future segment. Unless you like Facebook.
 

huxley

Member
So I don’t see Oculus being leaders in any future segment. Unless you like Facebook


and there you have it
 

Presuming Ed

Well-known Member
Ah really, why is there even a heated argument here?

Oculus and Valve bring completely different, complementary even, products to the VR market.

I don't know or care about what may or may not be coming in 2 years.

Two things VR needs to help it progress.

One - something impressive. Something aspirational. Something that will blow your socks off, that the VR enthusiasts will bang on about. The Index, and especially its controllers currently achieve that, along with the Alyx thing, as long as you're not a quivering coward like me.

Two - bodies. People. Volume. Mainstream takeup. Not everyone can afford a gaming PC, let alone an Index. And those who can may have other things to spend £2k on. This makes it quite exclusive.

So VR also needs a financially accessible option that's still pretty impressive and can play the 'big' games on modest hardware. And Oculus, above all others so far, it seems, have provided this. And I don't understand why it's not good news? More people owning VR headsets means more people buying games. From Oculus and from Steam. Better sales means the market is more attractive to developers. Why isn't this good?

Why would it be good for Oculus to fold its PC VR headset? Apart from giving certain individuals bragging rights to post on this forum about being right all along? Affordable entry points into PCVR completely removed. Lower game sales. Less attractive market for developers. Fewer reasons for studios like Frontier to consider continued support for VR.

Then you have the Quest, PSVR etc which again are fantastic entry points to VR, windows into the world. Potentially new market.

Why can't everyone be happy?

Nothing needs to be better or worse. Nothing needs to be 98% crap, or on their final stand.

From where I'm sitting, there's no need for fanboy wars.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
There is and never been a need for fanboy wars... Just so long as you accept the absolute truth that the Amiga blows the ST out of the water and that kick of 2 is better than sensible soccer. ;)

(Oh and that whilst the c64 may be technically better...... The speccy has more soul)

But other than that I agree. No need for fanboy wars
So long as PCVR sells I don't care the brand on the front.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Who’s pushing VR more? From where I sit I see Valve with the best headset, best selling VR game, best controllers and store open to all headsets?
Oh Atmos you forgot to mention Valve developing their own game Engine and then releasing it to Devs for free.

Valve has a great modding community that speaks for itself.

Then Valve worked with HP to push the Reverb G2 hardware not to benefit themselves because it will share sales with Index but to benefit us. While Oculus ditched GearVR to benefit GO, then ditched GO to benefit Quest. They crippled RiftS to push people towards Quest and then kicked Lenovo in the teeth by adding USB PC support. Progress is progress right? Even people that bought the Quest link cable wasted their money.
 

Presuming Ed

Well-known Member
Then Valve worked with HP to push the Reverb G2 hardware not to benefit themselves because it will share sales with Index but to benefit us.
Nobody is doing this to benefit you or me, or any VR users. They're investing in future profit.

I don't believe there are any business plans out there in Oculus, Facebook, HP, Sony, Valve, whoever, whose purpose is to 'make VR better for the people'.

The plan is to sell more stuff, make more profit. And to plan strategically to make sure they're in the right place to profit from VR if / when the time comes. This may make VR better for the people indirectly, but it's not the goal, and it's not what their investment will be measured by.

And that's not a criticism. It's just the way the world works. Capitalism, consumerism.
 

huxley

Member
Regardless, apart from PSVR oculus still have the lions share of the users and anything they do will trickle down one way or another. So it will benefit most in some way.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
I must admit I don't understand facebooks logic about only officially selling to rift headsets however you are massively blinkered if you truly believe valve are "helping" HP make the G2 out of some form of charity or a love of VR. As the company still with the largest online store it's obviously what they are doing. The want to sell games to more people and there is a hole currently in a device midway between cost of rift and index.
Valve are the company who STARTED forcing their bloatware software crap on people.... Until half-life 2 you didn't have to install software like steam on your machine.
I have no issue with valve wanting to make money, but don't like the fact so many put them on a pedestal. Have you ever read their Ts and Cs? They want to have us by the balls just as much as all the others.

Out of curiosity does HLA support the rift natively or does it use steamVR? If it's the former fair play that is cool. If it's the latter then it's no better than revive imo.
 

bilbosmeggins

Distinguished Member
If I play a “flat” game, I don’t have to go through a portal, an extra layer of software in order to get going. It just plays. It doesn’t care what brand of monitor I’m using. And I hate having to enter the murky world of Steam, or the closed doors of Oculus each time I have a session. When I fire up DCS, my heart sinks as Oculus Home fires up.

I, personally, cannot wait for the day that all HMD’s are just treated the same as a monitor, and we can dispense will all of the nonsense that now prevails. Let VR become mainstream, and each title offer native support. Then all of this divisive fanboy stuff can take a back seat. And more importantly, my PC can use all of it’s resources to drive the software I’m actually bothered about, and not all of this unnecessary sh!t in the background.
 

huxley

Member
If I play a “flat” game, I don’t have to go through a portal, an extra layer of software in order to get going. It just plays. It doesn’t care what brand of monitor I’m using. And I hate having to enter the murky world of Steam, or the closed doors of Oculus each time I have a session. When I fire up DCS, my heart sinks as Oculus Home fires up.

I, personally, cannot wait for the day that all HMD’s are just treated the same as a monitor, and we can dispense will all of the nonsense that now prevails. Let VR become mainstream, and each title offer native support. Then all of this divisive fanboy stuff can take a back seat. And more importantly, my PC can use all of it’s resources to drive the software I’m actually bothered about, and not all of this unnecessary sh!t in the background.
We still have to fight with launchers with pancake games.
 

Presuming Ed

Well-known Member
A headset isn't just a monitor though, is it? It's a complex set of input devices too. Your flat games don't need to know which way your monitor is facing, or when it moves.

I do understand the sentiment though.

i had the most positive experience I've ever had with a new racing game with Automobilista 2.

Bought it, installed it, launched it from Windows. Little Steam menu pops up, I choose 'Steam VR'.

Go over to the wheel, put the headset on, and everything just worked. Detected my wheel, pedals, assigned all controls to it. All in the background. The first thing I see is the main game menu in VR, with an intuitive 'gaze' based UI

I could actually get into a racing car and pound around a circuit, immediately after install, without going into the settings menu once. Now that's progress. This is, after all, mainly a flat game.

Pretty impressive, fun title too. The Ginetta GT4 at Oulton Park, The F3 at Donnington, are very raw but tactile. I've never had a sense of speed in VR (or any racing simulation ever for that matter) like the Formula V10 at Montreal.

Based on the Project CARS 'Madness' engine but with obvious work on high standard physics and FFB. If SMS go 'full arcade' with PC3 (which it seems they are doing - no pitstops, no fuel consumption or tyre wear for example) then I wonder if that is based on there being a more simulator based title running on their engine now, in AMS2.

Project CARS always fell down the middle for me. Too many cars with not enough attention to detail in physics terms. For every good driving experience there seemed to be at least 5 poor ones.

If they move it to fully arcade, more along the lines of Project Gotham and Forza Horizon, then I'm more likely to buy in I think. We don't have a title like that in VR yet. (I'm pretty certain VR is confirmed for PC3).
 

bilbosmeggins

Distinguished Member
A headset isn't just a monitor though, is it? It's a complex set of input devices too. Your flat games don't need to know which way your monitor is facing, or when it moves.

I do understand the sentiment though.

i had the most positive experience I've ever had with a new racing game with Automobilista 2.

Bought it, installed it, launched it from Windows. Little Steam menu pops up, I choose 'Steam VR'.

Go over to the wheel, put the headset on, and everything just worked. Detected my wheel, pedals, assigned all controls to it. All in the background. The first thing I see is the main game menu in VR, with an intuitive 'gaze' based UI

I could actually get into a racing car and pound around a circuit, immediately after install, without going into the settings menu once. Now that's progress. This is, after all, mainly a flat game.

Pretty impressive, fun title too. The Ginetta GT4 at Oulton Park, The F3 at Donnington, are very raw but tactile. I've never had a sense of speed in VR (or any racing simulation ever for that matter) like the Formula V10 at Montreal.

Based on the Project CARS 'Madness' engine but with obvious work on high standard physics and FFB. If SMS go 'full arcade' with PC3 (which it seems they are doing - no pitstops, no fuel consumption or tyre wear for example) then I wonder if that is based on there being a more simulator based title running on their engine now, in AMS2.

Project CARS always fell down the middle for me. Too many cars with not enough attention to detail in physics terms. For every good driving experience there seemed to be at least 5 poor ones.

If they move it to fully arcade, more along the lines of Project Gotham and Forza Horizon, then I'm more likely to buy in I think. We don't have a title like that in VR yet. (I'm pretty certain VR is confirmed for PC3).
I know, and I understand that. That’s why I said when it becomes mainstream. Then, hopefully, all of the necessary wants of the HMD and controllers will be natively embedded in Windows, and some sort of industry standards can be adhered to, with hardware and software companies alike calling upon the same procedures.

From a personal point of view, I seldom use the controllers anyhow. Just tend to use HOTAS, mouse and keyboard. Although I realise that isn’t typical for most users. So just head tracking is all I actually need.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
I get it . You think oculus are the destroyers of VR. I myself am no Facebook apologist however as of today and for the last 12 months Facebook DO have the best inside out tacking, they have the best software compensation for framerate loss in ASW2 and as of right now have (I stand to be corrected on this) the only "mainstream" (in so far as anything in VR could be considered mainstream) controller less hand tracking.
Others may have things in the pipe but I gave up trusting anything pimax said long ago.
Imo the area where oculus is lacking is in the hmd itself and this sucks but it's not that the rift S or quest are rubbish ... Not for the cost segment they are in, it is just that they don't really have a headset with premium specs for a premium price.... Which is a real shame.
So sure let's not blow smoke up their asses but equally let's not be dishonest and pretend they are not pretty innovative / doing well in some areas. Their prototypes are also pretty cool.... I just hope they release the damn things
Oculus are the market leaders in VR at present, no arguments over monthly surveys or who said what to who is going to change that at present. As much as a lot of us dislike Mr Zs company you can’t ignore the fact that they seem to be pushing the tech harder than a lot of others. Cheap hardware in the hands of the masses with minimal fuss, the Quest.
With regards to software you only have to look daily at the likes of uploadvr to see games being included in the Quest line up.

With regards to steam vr use for Oculus users. Yes a lot of rift and riftS as well as Quest user are on steam VR. But with the quest sales going through the roof I would imagine a lot more are not.

this is progress.
Glad I'm not the only one here posting sense. 😁😎😁
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Oh Atmos you forgot to mention Valve developing their own game Engine and then releasing it to Devs for free.

Valve has a great modding community that speaks for itself.

Then Valve worked with HP to push the Reverb G2 hardware not to benefit themselves because it will share sales with Index but to benefit us. While Oculus ditched GearVR to benefit GO, then ditched GO to benefit Quest. They crippled RiftS to push people towards Quest and then kicked Lenovo in the teeth by adding USB PC support. Progress is progress right? Even people that bought the Quest link cable wasted their money.

Did you REALLY just refer to yourself in the third person. Are you hearing voices too..? 😯🤪😂😂😂
 

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