VPL10 pre and post calibration

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Buying & Building' started by Gordon @ Convergent AV, Jun 11, 2001.

  1. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Added a couple more pics to the crappy page. They were taken with a low res Digi camera compared to the other but I think you'll get an idea of how dramatic a difference this is.....
    http://members.aol.com/gdfraser/pics.htm

    Sorry the page is so crappy. Hope to have a decent site done soon. Anyway, look forward to any comments.

    Gordon

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]
     
  2. slingshot

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    Excellent pics Gordon, since I've just got my VPL10, what is ISF calibration ? And how do I do it ?

    I've used VE to set it up, but it looks like I can get even more out of it.

    Cheers

    Slingshot
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    More information on ISF can be found on their web site. WWW.IMAGINGSCIENCE.COM

    It was started by Joe Kane to promote better quality video reproduction by manufacturers and dealers.

    What you've done is as good as you can get unless you want to play in the service menu of your unit. Instructions how to do that are prevalent on the web. Without the relevant test equipment it's extremely unlikely you'll be able to do what's in the pics. The first pic was taken after doing a V.E. going over.

    What I did was adjust the red/green/blue drives and cut offs to get maximum contrast while making sure the thing still worked within it's linear range and still tracked grey at the right temperature. :)

    It's a service I will offer very soon. Just trying to work out reasonable rate's so that it's actually worthwhile for you and me.....

    I can also do this with normal tubed TV's, rear projection and of course front projection (crt style)

    Glad you liked the pics. I presumed that folk will have their PC monitors reasonably well adjusted so they can see the difference. The pics are unmodded, as they came of the camera. Taken with an FMJ27 as source, firing at a Stewart screen with studiotek130 material, 235cm wide.

    All the best,

    Gordon

    [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]
     
  4. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Gordon, all i can say is WOW! what a difference!

    I look forward to you getting some prices together for your services. Looks well worth it, i am still looking for someone to install a Barco 800 i'm getting soon. :rolleyes:
     
  5. buns

    buns
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    I agree! This is stunning! Is that sort of tweaking able to be done by any installers, or is it something only the select few can achieve properly?

    Adam
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    There are 11 folk who've taken ISF course in the UK. You need the test equipment to actually do it and I don't think many/any have invested. You can check who they are on the web site. I suspect that most did the course in the UK after a CEDIA thing.

    There's one guy who I would consider is up to it but I can't comment on the rest......

    It's a bit like being a car mechanic with no tools to be an ISF tech with no colour analyser or optical comparator.

    I'm sure someone trained in recognising greyscale's etc could possibly get to where the initial pic was, or closer. To get to the final pic though is a different matter.

    I may post pics of a PLV30 at factory settings then at what I got by eye, without the analyser...except I don't want to embarass myself.

    Gordon
     
  7. buns

    buns
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    I'm starting to wonder whether money is best spent on the projector.....or on the guy who sets it up!

    That makes me think whether it is in fact worth all the hassle and cost of getting someone genuinely qualified to come and install for me! Are said people going to take the micky in terms of cost if i ask them to come to Northern Ireland?

    Adam
     
  8. Mr.D

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    Hi Gordon

    I used to calibrate hi-res monitors for filmwork with a philips colour analyser and a laptop based eeprom programmer.

    I did take the analyser home once and calibrated a Panasonic TX32D2 using a 20IRE and 100IRE windo patches and the RGB cut-oof and drive adjustments in the service menu ( used EBU chromaticity coords as someone in the know told me it was closets to rec709 which was best for digital formats: closer than SMPTE but I couldn't actually see a difference in the target coords). Made a big difference to the picture which was originally around 9000K at extremes and all over the shop track wise. ( 100Hz was still pants though it went back to granada eventually: with a really accurate grayscale!)

    Took me 10 minutes with the analyser and when no more improvement could be made the set tracked accurately at no more than +/- 15K at extremes. (analyser was 3 months passed its last calibration by philips). My newer TX32PK1 looks to me to be very close to 6500K on its warm setting so I havn't bothered with that yet.

    I'll be going the front projector route at some point in the future and was wondering if you knew what type and how much the reflective light sensor was? Failing that if the analyser isn't suitable for projection calibration (can also source a minolta analyser) is the optical comparator worth it?

    colour accuracy is very important to me.
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    MrD: I had a play with an optical comparator and found it difficult to use. Unless you are very used to seeing "grey" it becomes hard to do as the light from the comparator is much brighter than that of the thing you're comparing it against.

    I don't know how much the sensor is on my unit, sorry.


    Buns: There is a member of this forum in Southern Ireland who may be able to help you with set up and poss supply as well. I have a friend who owns a shop in Belfast, in fact it's his VPL10 I've been playing with. For me to come and see you depends on what yo get and what's required along with how long I'd have to come over for.

    With CRT I'd say that who does set up can be more important than the actual unit you are using. Maybe not so much with fixed panel technology like LCD/DLP though.

    Hope this helps,

    Gordon
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Leon,

    If you go to the ISF web site at the address mentioned you can do a search for ISF guys in England, or Scotland (don't bother with Scotland, there's only me). It's going to be changed to U.K with us all put together at next update. They'll also fix the fact they forgot to mention I have a colour analyser.

    Of those dealers mentioned I've never heard of two and another is out of business. Giles Charman at Sound Idea's is the only one I know has a colour analyser. The only reason I know he has one is that I told him where to buy it! It's unlikely that these guys will offer ISF set up on equipment they don't sell. Giles, for instance spends all his days doing six figure installations for the UK's leading custom installation firm, so a few quid for doing a TV's not likely to excite him if you know what I mean. He's a top bloke though....

    I paid for myself to go to Canada and do ISF training and purchased the tools so that I could offer this service throughout the UK.

    Good luck in your search. In Southern Ireland you can contact Paul O'Hale. He participates on this forum. You'll probably find posts by him in the "projectors in Ireland thread"

    If it's in the UK....well you know where I am!

    Gordon

    [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Gordon,

    Sounds like a great service to me, I'll know who to call to setup my 16:9 6 colour wheel DLP projector with built in anti-rainbow system and super black enhancer. :)

    Jeff
     
  12. minimivic

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    Hi Gordon,

    Excellent results from the VW10.

    When you are setting calibrating I assume you adjust the Bias and Gain, are there any other adjustments?
    Is it a lot more indepth?
    Its surprising what a difference it makes adjusting just the Gain. I would like to see a properly calibrated VW10. Most people just leave them at Factory settings, which is awfull most of the time. ;)
     
  13. buns

    buns
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    Gordon,

    I was in Lyric in belfast yeterday, the only reason I didnt get to look at the Sony was because you have it!!! I was kinda put off by the guy I talked to, mainly because when mentioning rainbow effect, he knew of no such thing! Despite this slightly worrying point, could lyric do this adjusting which you do? In other words is it genuinely worthwhile to go spending an extra thousand pounds with them as opposed to buying mail order? Try and give an opinion as a consumer and not a seller please!! :)

    But send the sony back soon!

    Adam
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Buns,

    Sorry...... When I was on holiday someone asked to see a VPL10. Michael who owns Lyric used to own StereoStereo years ago. He's best mates with my boss so they called him and borrowed it. I saw the opportunity and siezed it. Michael very kindly allowed me to play with his unit. I think we're sending it back on Thursday or maybe next Monday.

    They'll need to re-do contrast and brightness for their dem room but you should get an idea of what it can do. No, I'm afraid they don't have the ability to do this work though.

    Don't know who you spoke to at Lyric so I can't comment really. Everyone I've met is nice but that doesn't mean they know everything about everything. You'll probably find they are pretty OK with the things they sell.

    Sharky: I adjusted normal control settings then bias and gain. There are other settings that can be further tweaked but I didn't have time to fully investigate how to get the best out of them. These are for delay's in the colour difference signals from component compared to luminance and for zoned gamma control.

    Gordon
     
  15. buns

    buns
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    Thanks Gordon.
    I wasnt doubting the overall competence of Lyric, more doubting whether I will be able to warrant the extra outlay to buy from them as opposed to creation-station or their likes......but before all that I actually need to get looking at the sony! I am told it is head and shoulders above the rest....I havent told lyric that if it is as good as they say I probably cant afford to buy it from them! I cant see them appreciating that!


    Sorry to diverge from the original topic, but whilst i have your attention....can you think of anything else to rival the sony for less than £3500? It needs to be short throw in the extreme! (well, not quite that bad!) Which brings my second question.....is there anywhere I can find a throw calculator for the sony? I am not even sure if it can manage the necessary throw of about 6 foot wide from approx 9 feet!!

    thank you!

    Adam
     
  16. minimivic

    minimivic
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    Buns,

    You can get 6' wide 16:9 image between 8.8 and 10.2' throw.
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I think you'll be OK with 6ft at that distance. If you go to AVS web site and do a search I'm sure youll find a link to download PJCALC. That's the software you need.

    You could also try www.thebigpicturedvd.com

    Gordon

    Sorry, unless you find something s/h I think you're out of luck beating a VPL10 in your situation
     
  18. buns

    buns
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    Thank you very much.....as you may guess the throw distance is my biggest problem, given that, it is just as well there is such a top projector which fits the bill! But I have too see it first.....then decide whether its worth the money extra over something like the mitsibishi!

    thanks

    Adam
     
  19. Leon Rees

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    Gordon,

    Are you in a position to publish the contact details of those people in the UK who are ISF accredited?

    Others...

    Can those qualified for this kind of work publish their contact details and credentials?

    Thanks,

    Leon
     
  20. Black 5

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    buns,
    www.thebigpicturedvd.com also has a downloadable FAQ that goes through the best way to set up the Sony using the service menu and Avia test disc. Made quite a difference to me when I did it.
     
  21. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Gordon, I will be contacting you shortly about getting a fixed "grey" screen. I was wondering if it would be possible for you to calibrate both the screen and my VW10HT "in shop", or would doing it in "my" actual room be the only/best way?. On the AVS forum they coined the phrased "Thumperised" for a ISF calibration done by somebody called "Thumper", so with this in mind maybe we should start asking for our gear to be "Gordonised"!( I thought of "Fraserised" but that sounded like a type of milk!) :D .
    Paul...
     
  22. Richard Harnwell

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    For all those who don't follow the relevant US forum, there's a new "tweak" that involves using a cheap colour correcting lens filter to (after re-calibrating) lower VPL-VW10HT black levels without affecting white levels. Sounds too good to be true, but it seems everyone who's tried it loves it!

    Here it is:

    suggestion & feedback
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Ideally you are calibrating the entire replay chain. This includes the room reflections to some degree as well as the DVD player, scaler, cables, amps etc. So, although I could do it in the shop and get pretty close I'd rather do it in-situ.

    Gordon
     
  24. Couch Potato

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    Fulabeer,

    In another thread I asked if anyone from the NW would be interested in tying up some dates so that it would be more cost effective and justifiable for Gordon to do his stuff. I'm 35 miles south of M/ter are you interested in sorting out some dates?

    rgds
    Couch
     
  25. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    Wow I mooted a similar approach months ago but I see he's applying the filter more to the green and blue than red and producing some non-linearity in the grayscale. Might be worth a try though.
     
  26. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Couch potato, setting a date for Gordon would be ideal depending on how soon i can get my fixed screen etc. I will post on this site when Gordons heading South so others can book a "Gordonisation"!. :D
     

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