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Voice/Pictures out of Sinc on Sky+

Discussion in 'Sky Digital TV Forum' started by moff, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. moff

    moff
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    Hi, I need help. I have just set up a new home Cinema system which includes a Sky+ box, panasonic plasma and Sony Davs888. I am using a Synchblaster cable from TV to Sky, conponent video leads to Sony from TV and another lead(not sure of name) from Sky to Sony. Everything seems to be working fine except for the fact that when watching live broadcats, eg, Sky news, News24, or Sports etc the sound is about a second ahead of the pictures, its like watching a dubbed Kung Fu film!

    I have checked and double checked my connections, cleaned them, unplugged everything, messed about with settings but I cannot solve it. The Sky + was working fine before I changed it to this new TV.

    The plasma is a monitor only and so the Sky + is my only source of receiving broadcasts, so no terestrial signal.

    Can anyone advise me please?
     
  2. davej

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    Sounds like processing being done in the plasma is delaying the pictures - I recommend you post this query on the plasma forum, I'm sure I've seen similar discussions there and on the television/projector forum before.
     
  3. Piers

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    moff,

    davej's explanation is correct. The video processing in the Panasonic plasma delays the picture while the sound comes through without the delay and is therefore ahead of the picture. I have a similar Sky+ and Panasonic setup and found it all but unwatchable. The solutions are not cheap. The best is an amp with master audio delay (Denon 3803 is about the cheapest with this facility). There are rumours that someone is working on a box that will just introduce audio delay for digital audio sources and price is expected to be about £400.
     
  4. JAMBO

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    There are numerous posts on this problem, if you do a search on lip-sync. I have recently purchased a Hitachi 42" plasma and Sky+ and I too have noticed lip-sync problems. They seem to vary from channel to channel and are a caused by the quality of output from the channel provider, not your equipment. Live broadcasts do seem to be the worst. In general, the plasma processing takes 8 milliseconds longer than the sound processing, so will invariably run that far behind, though that is barely noticeable. The size of your plasma merely makes the lip-sync issue more obvious, if you go back to a standard 22" CRT and look closely, you will still see lip-sync problems on certain channels, it's just not as obvious on smaller TV's. A large TV magnifies the picture and improves viewing, but it also magnifies any imperfections.
    You can purchase kit which will delay the sound, to bring it into sync with your picture, but they cost a few hundred quid and due to the fact that the timing of the lip-sync problem can vary during the same programme, far less channel to channel, you would spend your whole life adjusting it. Unfortunately, until someone invents a device to automatically adjust lip-sync in every broadcast, you just have to live with it I'm afraid.
     
  5. moff

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    Well thanks for all that information fella's, although now having spent £3500 on the whole system I must admit that I expected better, or at least for the sales staff where I bought it to point out this problem. Trouble is although I still have the best system to watch films etc I do like to watch sports etc, I suppose the trick is not to look at anyone's mouth on screen and it will be fine. I did have a sky engineer booked for friday to come and check my system but I suppose there is no point now and will cancel him. I take it that there is only one Sky+ box manufacturer, so not worth requesting another box?

    Thanks anyway.
     
  6. JAMBO

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    The problem is not with the box, but the broadcasters themselves. You will see that Sky channels are not too bad, but go to QVC, Setanta Sport, UK Gold etc and the problem gets worse. I too had no idea about the problem before purchasing my kit, but you get used to it.
    Sometimes it helps to switch both the plasma and the amp off for a few seconds.
     
  7. moff

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    So the cheapest solution is a Denon 3803 amp with a master audio delay? but with this you constantly have to fiddle with it if you are channel hopping. Getting used to it seems like the only option at the moment then.
     
  8. geordie

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    There is a cheaper way. I have just bought a second-hand sound effects processor which has a high quality stereo audio delay capability, manually variable. I haven't rigged it up yet (need to buy some quarter inch jack plug phono connectors) but others have used this machine successfully. It is a TC Electronic M-one, I paid £185 through Loot but have seen them fetch well over £200 on e-bay. Used to retail at £249, now you can only get a mk2 version for closer to £400.

    You need to to connect it to the tape monitor input and tape out audio sockets on your home cinema amp (front pair only). I have a Yamaha DSP E800 processor to add on to my stereo audio set up which is ideal.

    Sooner or later someone needs to do an audio delay device which has either remote control adjustment or, as last poster said, automatic adjustment. I also agree that the delay caused by the plasma screen's picture processing is only a minor contibutory factor. The broadcast signal is the culprit so blame Sky not Panasonic. The large screen with detail picture resolution just exposes the problem. If you look at the plasma forum you will find mine and others' comments on this problem a whole year ago. But you do get used to it and it is barely noticeable on Sky movies and main channels. News 24 is worst. Good luck!
     
  9. moff

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    Cheers for that option. If the main problem is the broadcast signal from Sky, is there anyway you can boost your signal to relieve the problem. When I do a system test on my sky+ it shows that I am only receiving a ok signal with a grey reception bar, in my previous home I had a good signal and a green bar, could this help?
     
  10. Starburst

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    The problem is not with SKY+, if the video & audio were perfectly encoded there would still be a delay added by the plasmas video processing. We can argue that the delay might not be noticeable but it would still be there and then we could go down the road of which plasma added the most delay:)

    The problem occurs after the audio and video data has left the SKY+ and is processed by the amp and the plasma display.
    The audio processing to all intents and purposes adds no delay to the audio signal but the plasma takes longer to process the video and therfore you hear the sound before the picture.

    You had a green bar on the strength meters?
    That's new to me, was this a tweak to the SKY OS for specific digiboxes then?
     
  11. Piers

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    Agreed that the delay varies between channels on Sky but not by a lot in my experience. The basic problem is that sound coming before video is very noticeable to some people - it amazes me that it is apparently not noticed by some. If you set the delay on an amp like the denon 3803 to give the maximum delay needed to ensure that no channels on Sky are producing sound before vision I find that it looks OK. Some of the channels will produce sound marginally after vision but this is far less unnatural than sound before vision and doesn't worry me.

    Progressive scan from DVD can be even worse. The Corrs DVD needed about 150ms of audion delay to get the sound and vision in sync.
     
  12. mk

    mk
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    I have recently had SKY+ V2 installed and noticed straight away on my CRT TV that the sound was before the picture. This is also constant on all channels and with recordings.

    I requested an engineer visit and they swapped the LNB and the box for a NEW one and the problem still remains.

    It is the same on another TV we have on TV link which is in the bedroom and fed by RF not scart so I think it is the SKY+ box.

    Also doesn't matter whether TV sound or optical 5.1 feed.

    Logged the issue with PACE and awaiting a reply.
     
  13. geordie

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    Did you have the same problem before with sky digital or is the Sky plus box worse? I am having Sky plus installed next week!

    I think most people do not notice because they are not viewing on high resolution large screens, the problem is more noticeable on a plasma or projector partly because of the extra delay caused by picture processing but partly because the picture is larger and clearer. I agree that the audio is always fractionally ahead of the picture when watching anything on a plasma screen (at least any Panasonic, but they all process picture to some degree). But with DVD and some sky chamnnels the delay is so slight as to be only occasionally irritating. The extra delay on some other channels makes it much more obvious and sometimes unwatchable.
     
  14. mk

    mk
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    I personally haven't noticed any problems with sound in the last 5 years - only since SKY+ installed. Same TV and leads etc different box, dish and LNB though.
     
  15. Dalorp

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    Got my Panasonic plasma up and running yesterday. watched BBC 2 and even with some very closeups of lips there was only the slightest sync issue. Others watching never noticed it atall but I did as I was looking for it. Sky Movies, MTV plus my DVD were also fine. Sky Sports One was way out though.

    I accept that the plasma will cause some delay but most of it must surely be due to the Sky signal on certain channels otherwise the problem would be pretty much equal on all channels.

    Also if you get an amp to alter the audi by some milliseconds then surely the channels that were origionally ok will now be thrown out the other way. Therefore constant changing of settings will be required.

    Therefore we ideally need a device that you can remotely shift the audio up and down to get it in sync in the same way we turn volume up and down.


    Please somebody tell me if I'm talking rubbish here as I'm very new to all this
     
  16. bazzae123

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    mk,

    Funny you said that. I've just got SKY+ and the first thing the wife said was that the sound is out of sink. She noticed it on Sky news. I've just come to this forum looking for a answer. The only other problem is the TV is new as well so there's two components in the equation, but terrestrial is OK.

    bazza
     
  17. StooMonster

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    It depends on the broadcast.

    The lip-sync will not only vary by channel, but by programme, and with news programmes even by segment.

    Plasmas and digital processing devices do add delay, but they usually compound an already existing problem; they are not soley responsible for it.

    StooMonster
     
  18. brichards

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    Use Freeview instead no such poroblem.?????
    It does not happen at all.
    and i have both with Panasonic Plasma.So WHY???????????????????????????????????
     
  19. BigH

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    Hi guys,

    there are three reasons for lip sync problems that I have found so far:

    1 Video delay introduced by Plasma processing the signal from interlaced to progressive - relatively small delay

    2 Poor video/sound synchronisation on the source material - meaning some sky broadcasts are rubbish. Can be significant!

    3 I have noticed increasing lip synch problem on a sky channel, ie as time goes on the delay increases. Flipping the channel back and forth resynchs the sound. These may well be due to the decoding system in the sky receiver.

    One thing is for sure the bigger the screen the more noticable the lip synch problem. I have a 50" Panny plasma and noticed the problem straight away. Having said that I expected it following research done through AV forums!

    Solutions:

    I upgraded to a Denon 3803, primarily for the audio delay. I have to say this solved the problem with the added benefit of much better sonic performance as compared to my Sony DB940. Prologic II on terestrial stuff is excellent!! Please note that the delay is configurable on all sources so it can set to different delays for different sources. At £600 the 3803 is a great investment.

    I hope this helps!
     
  20. Dalorp

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    Big H.

    With the 3803 how easy is it to change the Audio Delay settings. Is it a simple up/down button on the remote during the video or do you have to go into some kind of menu.

    I only ask because I notice that as you change channel and programme the sync changes significantly so having a fixed setting for each video source is not the answer.
     
  21. BigH

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    You have to go through a menu, however I never have to do this as I have a setting which is a compromise and works well for us. If the voice is slightly behind this is barely noticeable.
     
  22. Dalorp

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    ahh ok. Think I'll wait until a magic black box comes out that is remote operated on the fly
     
  23. BigH

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    Don't hold your breath!!!
     

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