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VisionHDP or VisionProHDP

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by ihan, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. ihan

    ihan
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    Is the ProHDP worth the extra money?

    Here's what I want to do:

    Connect Arcam DV79 to the Scaler (HDMI output to DVI input).
    Connect Sky Box to the Scaler (SCART output to RGBs input)
    Connect VCR to the Scaler (composite on scart to composite input on Scaler)
    Connect the scaler's output to my 50PHD7 (via the DVI output on the Lumagen to a DVI card in the 50PHD7).

    Now, I've been on Lumagen's website, and it appears as though I can do all the above with the HDP. There is no claim that the ProHDP offers any picture quality enhancements. So is the ProHDP worth the extra money?

    In addition, it terms of optimum picture quality, is it best to get the DV79 SDI modified, and go into an SDI input on the ProHDP (I understand that the HDP has no SDI inputs)?

    If the lumagen is set to output PAL at 50Hz, does the panasonic DVI card accept a native res signal at 50Hz? If not, is analogue the best way of connecting the lumagen to the panel? Surely, a 50Hz to 60Hz conversion looks nasty with fast panning scenes?

    Thanks for any replies,
    ihan
     
  2. vonhosen

    vonhosen
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    You can get SDI inputs on the HDP as an optional extra.
    I wouldn't however think SDI would offer great quality gain over 480i/576i from the HDMI output of the DV79.

    Saying that I think that if you go SDI reoute you will get Component 4:2:2 transfer between player & Lumagen, but if you go HDMI to DVI you will probably get RGB 4:4:4 instead. (Though I think Gordon said that may be addressed in a firmware update)
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK:

    As has been said sdi is an option.

    The HDP Pro offers some additional bits. SDI as standard. 2 sets of HQ Crimped RCA to BNC cables. 2 sets of svid to BNC connectors. Rack mount ears. It also has a different power supply stage inside and 75 Ohm BNC connectors for analogue inputs. The last two features will probably mean that on hi-resolution displays you may see a benefit in picture quality on the Pro. The Pro also has more flexible inputs in how they can be assigned and it has a front panel display for ease of configuration when the display is not in same room as scaler.

    The ability to accept 480i/576i via HDMI YCrCb is coming very soon. Pat is working on it now. I can't wait to test it with my own DV79.

    The Panasonic only accept NRes at 59.94Hz. We played a 50" with this res and refresh all weekend at Scottish HiFi Show and no-one mentioned any judder. It is there of course but even with ticker tape on news channels they are completely legible jut with stutter. If you want to go pixel for pixel at 50Hz then it's analogue you need.

    Ive just come from a dealers (thanks Joe) where I spent an hour or so trying 50Hz, 59.94Hz, 47.95Hz analogue pixel for pixel against 59.94 digital in to DVI. Quite frankly I would be happy happy with any of these......

    Hope this is of use.

    Gordon
     
  4. ihan

    ihan
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    Thanks vonhosen & Gordon.

    Is '480i/576i via HDMI YCrCb' equivalent quality to SDI?

    Is the '480i/576i via HDMI YCrCb' feature planned for both the HDP & HDPPro?

    If the answer to both the above is yes, I might as well buy the HDP and save myself £800.

    Am I right in thinking, that the HDP only has an 'optional' BNC analogue output (only DVI-A)? How much is this 'optional' analogue output?

    I'm surprised the DVI judder isn't much of an issue, whenever I've used a dvd-player to output NTSC from a PAL disk, the panning stutter has been horrific.

    Regards,
    ihan
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The 480/576I HDMI in is planned for all the range.

    Is it equivalent of SDI...We hope so but no-one has seen such a comparison yet as there are no devices to do it on.

    The DVI output of the HDP is DVI-I that means it has pins for either digital or analogue on the connector. The use of a suitable lead or adaptor can give you analogue from the DVI port. Optionally it is possible to fit BNC connectors for a more robust and better quality connection. Whether you would notice the mprovement the BNC's would make on a plasma is unknown. On an 8 or 9inch CRT probably.

    The DVI port on the Pro is DVI-D.....so digital only...but it comes with BNC analogue out as well as standard.

    You should note that the analogue output of any HDCP compliant scaler is turned off when an HDCP encrypted input is fed to the HDMI/DVI input. So if you wanted to use analogue out then you would want to look at SDI as the method of feeding digital in to the scaler.

    Regarding Judder with 50 to 60 Hz conversion. If you are susceptible to seeing this artefact then you may find it more apparent than the majority of folk. Also poor frame rate conversion can look a mess.

    Gordon

    Gordon
     
  6. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    ihan

    Whilst SDI is not for everyone do keep in mind you choice of HDMI or DVI with HDCP equipped Sources that output an interlaced non scaled signal is not as wide as you would expect.

    Gordon's underselling the inclusion of an LCD display on the Pro - when you get the dreaded 'out of range' message on your Display having the ability to 'see' what your doing on the front panel of the Pro is a nice feature.

    Some pretty 'keen' eyes didn't clock the 50>60Hz Frame Rate conversion we were running all last weekend :)

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS And the full width rack mountable Pro 'looks' sexier too - if that sort of thing turns you on :)
     
  7. peter350

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    I certainly would echo Joe's comments concerning the front panel display. Setting native rate on my pioneer plasma involves using this to put the horiz refresh back into range.

    Lumagens do an excellent job at frame rate conversion (unlike your dvd player comparison). I watched pal for a year at 1080p at 60hz on the old Vision and now for few months at 768p at 70hz on a proHDP (these vertical refreshes are due to Pioneer 433 issues).

    Peter
     
  8. ihan

    ihan
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    Thanks for the advice everyone. I've decided I'm going to buy the pro version. Unfortunately, after buying the 50PHD7, I don't have that amount of 'spare' money available, so it will have to bought next year.

    Regards,
    ihan
     
  9. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi,

    I've bought zAndy1's LumagenHDP. It is connected to the DV79 via a HDMI to DVI cable. The Lumagen is connected to my 50PHD7 via the DVI card. After phoning Gordon (many thanks), I was able to acheive 1:1 pixel mapping. Setup was straightforward, I was just being over concerned with some flicker on the vertical line test pattern (Gordon said this was normal).

    Picture via DV79 is an improvement; and only a slight 50 to 60Hz conversion judder is visible.

    SKY is connected from RGB SCART to RGBS on the lumagen. Unfortunately, I'm seeing much more combing via sky than I do without the lumagen, and occasionally, the picture drops out as though the box cannot detect the incoming signal. Any ideas?

    BTW, I have the latest Lumagen firmware (22/12/04).

    Many thanks for any suggestions,
    ihan
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    PAL is being worked on. I don't see more combing on my DVI than direct just now. I was at a customers this morning (when you called) and came across a bug that I have reported to Lumagen. I expect this will alleviate what you see until they finish the PAL de-interlacing in late Jan/early Feb.

    I am unfamilier with the exact age of that unit Andy had. I think it may have been an older unit...not sure. Input3 will accept RGBcvS on all versions just now but early ones needed a sync filter. Input4 on DVI and HDP always require a sync filter to work with RGBcvS. If you are losing sync it sounds like that may be the problem and possibly a cause of the combing too.


    Gordon
     
  11. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Gordon.

    Thanks for the possible explanation. I have serial number 100600023, if that tells you whether it's an old unit or not?

    I'm using input 4 RGBS at the moment. I will try input 3. I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks very much for the support :)

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  12. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Gordon,

    Input 3 seems just the same (SCART or RGBS). I'm watching the darts on sky sports extra, and every time at the beginning and the end of the adverts, there is a ladbrokespoker.com advert, in which virtually the whole frame turns red (normally). At this moment in time (every time), the picture breaks up and tears in half with horrific combing present.

    With general movement, I notice that the de-interlacer combs worse than the 50PHD7's deinterlacer. The effect is most noticeable on people's mouths.

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Your unit needs a filter for RGBS on either Input 3 or 4. I'm surprised you're actually getting anything! You should ask Andy if he has any filters. I am away to USA on business until 14th after this weekend so can't build you one until I get back.

    Gordon
     
  14. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    I put the filter in the box.

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  15. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Ian,
    Don't be disheartened by any combing you see, it will get sorted out in the fullness of time if it hasn't been already. I put the filter in the box , I think you need to put it on the end of the sync lead of the RGBS cable and then plug the filter into the HDP.

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  16. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Andy & Gordon,

    Thanks for the help. I didn't realise I needed that sync filter. I didn't even know it was a filter - there is no reference to it in any of the documentation.

    I've fitted the sync filter and the horrific breakup has now gone :)
    However, the stability of the picture is slightly affected; I can now see a horizontal band moving vertically through the picture, that slightly displaces (normally) vertical edges. This is most evident with static sky info bars, but it does occassionally occur with 'normal' pictures.

    At the moment, I feel as though the de-interlacing performance of the unit isn't upto scratch. I can still see combing; particularly evident on fast pans. I guess I'm just waiting for further firmware improvements.

    On a positive note, the scaling performance of the unit is as good as expected, the Arcam 'HDMI' logo of the DV79 now looks razor sharp; much better than using the display's internal scaler.

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  17. Fidelio

    Fidelio
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    I notice a little jurkiness on medium speed pans. Most evident on the closing titles of Emerdale (one for the mrs). As the helicopter passes over the landscape check out the trees in the wood below.

    I have every confidence that Pat at Lumagen will 'sort it'.

    Fidelio :D
     
  18. ihan

    ihan
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    Due to the latest firmware update, the PAL video deinterlacing has improved enormously. The firmware now has a 'video' mode giving a vast reduction in combing.

    Regards,
    Ian
     

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