Vinyl sibilance - is it the cartridge??

Manphibian

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A couple of months ago, I took my first steps into vinyl. I must say, there is LOTS I have grown to love about vinyl playback:
  • having something by my side that physically plays the music
  • interacting with the album halfway through (ie., flipping the disc)
  • having the ALBUM back at the centre of my music listening experience (rather than playlists and the shuffle button!)
  • not being able to skip tracks willy-nilly

I could go on.

However, one thing is driving me crazy - sibilance!

I’d say around 40-50% of the brand new records I’ve purchased include sibilance when played back on vinyl. This includes LPs such as Clapton unplugged, Nevermind, Surrealistic Pillow, Mezzanine, Thriller and more.

Now I’ve heard some of these records played on my friends’ (admittedly much lower resolving) system and there has been no sign of sibilance.

I have swapped all my other components in and out of the chain to confirm they are not adding sibilance. I have also used my turntable with a completely different system but the sibilance was still present.

The turntable I am using is a Marantz TT15-S1 (basically a rebadged Clearaudio, using the satisfy tonearm and Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge).

I have taken the turntable into two separate HiFi stores locally to ensure the turntable is set up correctly and still there is no improvement.

It really is infuriating. All I hear when I play an album is sibilance. I am at the point where all I can do is listen out for ‘s’ ‘sh’ and ‘ch’ sounds - and then get mad when they distort!

I’ve read numerous professional and user reviews of both the turntable and cartridge - but none of them call out any sibilance issues. However, it seems the only thing left to try is a new cartridge. The Virtuoso cart is an elliptical. Perhaps a cart with a shibata or microline stylus would track better? If so, can I just swap any cart onto the satisfy tonearm or do the arm and cart need to match one another? Do carts and arms have universal attachments?

Is there anything else I am missing or should be considering?

Thanks in advance :)
 
Although the quality of recent pressings leaves a lot to be desired I don't think that is the cause in your case.

I'm not familiar with that cartridge so I comment on it.
The TT and arm is of decent quality so as you say if the set up is all correct and the fault is not elsewhere on your system like a poor matching phono preamp it is possible the tip is worn or damaged or perhaps you just got a bad one from the factory (it does happen)

I am also very sensitive to sibilance as some people are, so I swapped out the Ortofon 2M supplied with my TT immediately to the highly recommended Audio Technica VM540ml 2 days after I bought it, music is now super clean and extended right through the record to the last track with zero sibilance or inner groove distortion. I think a lot of this comes from having the microline tip.
Audio Technica also make the AT-VM95ml which is a little cheaper, it has slightly less ch separation and a little less definition in the upper midrange than the 540ml but is still highly regarded.

If you are sure that everything else in your system is OK then it maybe time to try a different cartridge. You are obviously not enjoying your music at the moment. Just be sure that if you go for the Audio technica cartridge your capacitance loading is kept to 100pF or they can sound a little bright.
My other recommendation if you want to spend a little more would be the Ortofon 2M Bronze or Goldring 1042.
Can you say what Amplifier, phono pre, and speakers are you currently using?

As long as the cartridges are similar weights to you old one (within 5 grams) you should be OK, if it is significantly different you may run into problems with balancing it properly.

Have a listen on headphones to this YT clip of the Goldring Vs the Audio Technica.

 
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We need to know a load more information to help get to the bottom of this.

Phono preamp - I saw on another thread you said it was a Lehmann Black Cube SE II (FYI input capacitance is 100pF)
Cable from TT to phono pre?
Was the cartridge new or second hand?
Does this happen just on dynamic peaks or just any ‘ssss’ sound?
Does this happen just on the inner grooves of the record or anywhere across the side?

Cartridge load capacitance is 100pF, so your input capacitance is too high once you add the capacitance of the tonearm cabling and the interconnect to that of the phono pre. However I doubt that’s fundamentally the problem and making a cartridge with such a low load capacitance requirement is just idiotic and I don’t know why cartridge manufacturers do it because it’s nearly impossible to achieve in the real world (AT also guilty of this!). Depending on what your cable is I would swap it for one with the lowest capacitance possible - Blue Jeans LC-1 is about as low as it gets and not silly money. Obviously get the shortest length you can.

Like I say though, I doubt that is really the issue. I think the black cube has a variable gain setting. Where is that set right now? Try knocking it down a notch (don’t change the 1120 input gain to compensate, just turn up the volume more as needed). If what you are interpreting as sibilance is actually distortion on dynamic peaks caused by overloading the input on the 1120, that should resolve it.

If the cartridge was second hand then I hate to say it, but the stylus could be past it.
 
can I just swap any cart onto the satisfy tonearm or do the arm and cart need to match one another? Do carts and arms have universal attachments?

You can check tonearm/cartridge compatibility with a tool like this - Calculate Tonearm - Cartridge Capability

The fitting on the end of the tonearm and most cartridges will be a standard 1/2” mounting. You just have to avoid ‘p-mount’ cartridges but you’re unlikely to come up with one of those anyway. Compatibility is about the compliance of the cartridge (i.e. how easily the cantilever wiggles) reletive to the effective mass of the whole tonearm/cartridge assembly (i.e. which dictates what it takes for the tonearm to be moved). The resulting resonant frequency should be neither too low (such as below 7hz, where warped or off-centre-stamped records could excite it) or too high (such as above 12hz, where you get too close to the recorded content in the groove).

You should be able to find all the relevant specs online for your kit, but you need tonearm effective mass, cartridge mass, mass of fixing hardware (i.e. the little screws) and cartridge compliance*.

*Dynamic compliance quoted at 10hz. AT like to inconvenience everyone by quoting theirs at 100hz so take that number and multiply by 1.5.
 
What have you been doing to keep the stylus tip spotlessly clean?

A dirty tip will lead to mistracking distortion, which sounds horribly sibilant.

How clean are your records? Sometimes grunge in the grooves isn't visible to the naked eye, but will build up on the diamond. Hair and fluff floating round the room can be attracted to static on the vinyl.

A damaged or worn tip, as mentioned by Kapkirk, likewise.

Insufficient tracking weight for the cartridge can cause mistracking too.

Ends of sides of lps tend be more difficult to track.

Replacing the cartridge would probably fix it, as you'd have a spotlessly clean tip, and checked alignment and tracking weight. However it won't take long for dirt to build up again on your tip.

Google how to clean your stylus tip.

I use a combination of a specific stylus cleaning brush, fine matchbox sandpaper, stylus cleaning gel and silly putty. With all brushing done from back to front - ie same direction that vinyl travels in and exerts force on the stylus.

I have a lot of records that I bought used. Sometimes I have to clean the tip part way through a side.

Some cartridges are better trackers than others.

I'm also assuming you don't get this sibilance from other sources?
 
Iirc there are tutorials online showing how you can modify the VM95ML stylus for use with the Virtuoso cartridge. May be worth a search.
 
The Clapton unplugged album I have and there is no sibilance on this album.
If the stylus is clean and still has a great tip the sibilance can be caused by cartridge miss alignment -
Re check the cartridge on your protractor, reset it up again.
 
A couple of months ago, I took my first steps into vinyl. I must say, there is LOTS I have grown to love about vinyl playback:
  • having something by my side that physically plays the music
  • interacting with the album halfway through (ie., flipping the disc)
  • having the ALBUM back at the centre of my music listening experience (rather than playlists and the shuffle button!)
  • not being able to skip tracks willy-nilly

I could go on.

However, one thing is driving me crazy - sibilance!

I’d say around 40-50% of the brand new records I’ve purchased include sibilance when played back on vinyl. This includes LPs such as Clapton unplugged, Nevermind, Surrealistic Pillow, Mezzanine, Thriller and more.

Now I’ve heard some of these records played on my friends’ (admittedly much lower resolving) system and there has been no sign of sibilance.

I have swapped all my other components in and out of the chain to confirm they are not adding sibilance. I have also used my turntable with a completely different system but the sibilance was still present.

The turntable I am using is a Marantz TT15-S1 (basically a rebadged Clearaudio, using the satisfy tonearm and Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge).

I have taken the turntable into two separate HiFi stores locally to ensure the turntable is set up correctly and still there is no improvement.

It really is infuriating. All I hear when I play an album is sibilance. I am at the point where all I can do is listen out for ‘s’ ‘sh’ and ‘ch’ sounds - and then get mad when they distort!

I’ve read numerous professional and user reviews of both the turntable and cartridge - but none of them call out any sibilance issues. However, it seems the only thing left to try is a new cartridge. The Virtuoso cart is an elliptical. Perhaps a cart with a shibata or microline stylus would track better? If so, can I just swap any cart onto the satisfy tonearm or do the arm and cart need to match one another? Do carts and arms have universal attachments?

Is there anything else I am missing or should be considering?

Thanks in advance :)
I have no experience with the turntable or cartridge, but until you had mentioned that model, I was actually half assuming a different model that I know to often be quite sibilant. It is not an unusual problem.

I am maybe a little surprised you are experiences this to such an extent with a cartridge who price would suggest it should be much better, so I wonder if there may also be other contributing factors that also exacerbate sibilance - particularly the room setup, lots of bare walls/windows etc combined with choice of amp + speaker that maybe just a little in the bright side, but not to such an extent as to be a concerning problem with other sources.

I would look at my room first simply because that is free and does not require purchasing anything, just to see if the room is having an effect. Try hold a pair of dense pillows or cushions up in front of you and to the sides (not in line of sight to speaker, but line of sight to side wall reflection points) just to see if the sibilance is diminished. You appear to have tried a bunch of things already, but it isn't clear where they were tried. This quick test will at least tell you if the room boundaries are a significant part of the problem.

Sure, look at other cartridges according to your taste in vinyl sound - broadly a more softer vintage type of sounds vs a more modern digital streaming like sound. You may find a more vintage like sound goes better with the music you mention (maybe look at AT, Grado, Goldring etc). Personally I prefer a more modern sound as most of my vinyl is modern production (Ortofon bronze/black comes to mind - I have a bronze), but if I were still listening to the vinyl of my youth I think I would prefer a more vintage or softer sound. Lots of other options as well of course, but those I mention are those manufacturers I have some more recent experience of, or at least in some of the sub 500UKP models in their respective ranges.
 
First of all, thanks everyone for your helpful replies. I very much appreciate the time you have taken to offer assistance.

I have quoted the relevant parts below with comments...

Just be sure that if you go for the Audio technica cartridge your capacitance loading is kept to 100pF or they can sound a little bright.
Sorry for my ignorance, but I am not sure what this means. Would you be able to elaborate?

My other recommendation if you want to spend a little more would be the Ortofon 2M Bronze or Goldring 1042.
I was considering the 2m Black. Is there a reason that the Bronze would be preferable as the Black is usually considered to be the better cartridge?

Can you say what Amplifier, phono pre, and speakers are you currently using?
Currently Marantz TT --> Lehmann Black Cube SE II --> NAD 325BEE --> LS50 Meta

We need to know a load more information to help get to the bottom of this.

Phono preamp - I saw on another thread you said it was a Lehmann Black Cube SE II (FYI input capacitance is 100pF)
Cable from TT to phono pre?
Was the cartridge new or second hand?
Does this happen just on dynamic peaks or just any ‘ssss’ sound?
Does this happen just on the inner grooves of the record or anywhere across the side?
You're correct the phono stage is the Lehmann. I have a Chord Heui as well and had exactly the same problem with that.

Cable from TT to phono is the one that came with the TT. I'm not sure this is changeable as it is attached to the tonearm.

Cartridge was brand new.

It only happens on 'sss' 'ch' 'sh' sounds. Occasionally it might happen on a 'fff' sound. I think what is happening is that distortion occurs on the parts of the mix that are very nearly sibilant and the TT/cartridge/something else pushes it over the edges into sibilant distortion. This is because when I took it into Basically Sound (HiFi store near me), Tony (store owner) played some of the offending tracks on an extremely high-end/highly-resolving system he had set up, using digital files via Roon. On that system, the parts of the songs that were sibilant on my TT were very close to being sibilant (if that makes sense?).

It is more likely to happen on inner grooves but sometimes happens on other parts of the records as well. Because of this, Graham from Basically Sound spent about an hour setting up the TT. He looked at VTA, tracking force, arm height/balance, and did the cartridge alignment using a Clearaudio protractor. The cart/tt easily tracked everything on the test record up to and including 80 microns but we didn't try beyond that.

Cartridge load capacitance is 100pF, so your input capacitance is too high once you add the capacitance of the tonearm cabling and the interconnect to that of the phono pre. However I doubt that’s fundamentally the problem and making a cartridge with such a low load capacitance requirement is just idiotic and I don’t know why cartridge manufacturers do it because it’s nearly impossible to achieve in the real world (AT also guilty of this!). Depending on what your cable is I would swap it for one with the lowest capacitance possible - Blue Jeans LC-1 is about as low as it gets and not silly money. Obviously get the shortest length you can.
My apologies, but I am not sure what capacitance is or why is it important etc?

Like I say though, I doubt that is really the issue. I think the black cube has a variable gain setting. Where is that set right now? Try knocking it down a notch (don’t change the 1120 input gain to compensate, just turn up the volume more as needed). If what you are interpreting as sibilance is actually distortion on dynamic peaks caused by overloading the input on the 1120, that should resolve it.
I don't have the Lyngdorf yet so that defo not the problem! I am not at home just now but I will check the Back Cube's settings next time I am at home and report back.

The fitting on the end of the tonearm and most cartridges will be a standard 1/2” mounting. You just have to avoid ‘p-mount’ cartridges but you’re unlikely to come up with one of those anyway.
From what I can see, most cartridges have two screws on either side that attach to the tonearm. My tonearm and cart just have 1 screw - in the middle of the cart.

What have you been doing to keep the stylus tip spotlessly clean?

How clean are your records? Sometimes grunge in the grooves isn't visible to the naked eye, but will build up on the diamond. Hair and fluff floating round the room can be attracted to static on the vinyl.

Insufficient tracking weight for the cartridge can cause mistracking too.

I'm also assuming you don't get this sibilance from other sources?
I have a little brush made by Fluance that I use to clean the stylus. I am 99% certain it is not caused by a dirty stylus but I will double check just in case.

I have a Pro-Ject VCE to clean my records so I think most of them should be pretty clean.

I have had the tracking weight set by a good quality digital tracking scale by my local HiFi store.

You're correct - the sibilance is not present from other sources.


Iirc there are tutorials online showing how you can modify the VM95ML stylus for use with the Virtuoso cartridge. May be worth a search.
I have seen a couple but none that specifically relate to the Virtuoso cart. Do you know where I can find this one specifically. I'd be a bit nervous messing with a £900 cart though!

Despite being a £900 cart, the Virtuoso does use an elliptical stylus so I did wonder if a microcline might fix the problem.

The Clapton unplugged album I have and there is no sibilance on this album.
If the stylus is clean and still has a great tip the sibilance can be caused by cartridge miss alignment -
Re check the cartridge on your protractor, reset it up again.
I get the sibilance towards the end of side A, on 'Hey Hey' and 'Tears in Heaven'.

Alignment has been done by Basically Sound using a Clearaudio protractor. I was there when they did it, and the store assistant talked me through it.

I am maybe a little surprised you are experiences this to such an extent with a cartridge who price would suggest it should be much better, so I wonder if there may also be other contributing factors that also exacerbate sibilance - particularly the room setup, lots of bare walls/windows etc combined with choice of amp + speaker that maybe just a little in the bright side, but not to such an extent as to be a concerning problem with other sources.
I have tried in a different room as well unfortunately!
 
Well it seem to be down to the turntable. Re-reading I maybe missed your mention of being more likely toward center of the record which does kind of point to a setup issue and I guess most would suggest doing the setup from scratch again, but that seems to have already been done by people who should know what they are doing and presumably can be trusted to do so.

When I last replaced the cartridge on my own turntable I do remember having some issues despite accurate setup that were only finally resolved by ear and a test record (basically tiny tweaks to tracking weight and anti-skate until the issues went away and have since stayed away).
 
FWIW I'm using a Lehmann Linear, aka Black Cube, but the headphone/pre-amp version purely as a headphone amp. Sibilance is rare and can be put down to poor recordings. The Lehmann is a quality bit of kit and perhaps does suggest the TT is the culprit somehow.
 
If the sibilants is on the inner part of the record then it may be Inner Groove Distortion IGD. This is often a combination of the cartridge inherent performance but also setup and arm/cartridge alignment. Worth a google for IGD. The AT ML stylus geometry is often quoted as having very good IGD I.e. very little distortion.
 
I have a little brush made by Fluance that I use to clean the stylus. I am 99% certain it is not caused by a dirty stylus but I will double check just in case.

That's not enough to keep your tip clean.

Get some stylus cleaning gel. And some Magic Eraser.

How to clean your turntable's stylus


before_cleaning_large.jpg

after_cleaning_large.jpg
 
Back in the day when we didn't have any alternative to vinyl, sibilance was often a problem. I still remember the bad pressings, like Meddle by Pink Floyd that were a minefield of sibilance. Anyway, it is usually due to the stylus not following the groove at high frequencies. Elliptical styli should be better at this. Weight is also a factor. If the tracking weight is not enough then you will be in trouble.
Some pressings are just poor. That's down to the cutting engineer. And remember, with vinyl the inner grooves are cut and played with a very low linear velocity, making tracking very difficult.

I would try a different cartridge, and compare. Capacitance is important and affects the upper frequency response, but shouldn't cause high frequency distortion.
 
You say you took your first step into vinyl a couple of months ago, and that you are not happy with the sound quality produced by your vinyl replay system. Was your turntable package new and is it still under warranty? You also say your turntable was professionally set up. Was the set up procedure done by the same company you purchased the turntable from?

I ask, as it is entirely possible that the cartridge is faulty from new - it's not unknown.

Do you have any original vinyl from the sixties or seventies? I ask, as if you do, it would be interesting to learn if it too, is laden with sibilance. If you don't, eil.com is an excellent source from which graded vinyl can be purchased. Assuming you have something from that period and it too, replays with lots of sibilance, then your problem has to be you cartridge and/or turntable setup.

I wait to see what your answers are to my questions. There is a method to my madness.
 
I have a Rega3 TT with its original tonearm from the 80's. It was fitted with a number of Rega Bias cartridge models over the years. I experienced sibilance, especially inner-groove, to a greater or lesser extent with all of them. It drove me mad! Then most recently I had an AudioTechnica cart (forget the exact model-VM series MM) fitted and I've never heard any sibilance on any record since; and that cart is supposed to be fairly bright too! So I'm leaning towards thinking it's your cartridge just not playing nice with the rest of your system; bad synergy.
I also found during my sibilant years that increasing the anti-skating to over 2g reduced sibilance and also increasing tracking weight helped too.
 
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I use a combination of a specific stylus cleaning brush, fine matchbox sandpaper, stylus cleaning gel and silly putty. With all brushing done from back to front - ie same direction that vinyl travels in and exerts force on the stylus.

I have a lot of records that I bought used. Sometimes I have to clean the tip part way through a side.
Ugh, unless your stylus is a nail, never use sandpaper and silly putty to clean it! Magic Eraser is also terrible. You’re leaving a chemical film and you are bending the cantilever - ever slightly- but it will affect performance. You’ve probably damaged it beyond repair.
Only a very light brushing with a brush for this purpose is required.
Your records should be cleaned with a good quality cleaner (eg DeGritter). If clean, your stylus won’t need more than a light brushing.
 

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