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Video Upscaling etc.

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Rick1486, Feb 18, 2005.

  1. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    Hi - first off here's my system.

    Denon 2105 amp
    Denon 2910 dvd player
    Sony VPL-HS10 projector
    HTPC
    XBOX
    Sky (Pace box analog)
    Mission Speakers
    REL Subwoofer

    My question is this. I know that the Denon amp will upscale video signals ie. if I connect a composite source to the relevant input on the amps rear and then connect a video out via s-video (e.g. xbox) then the resultant signal into the projector will be of s-video quality and will be better than if I had just connected the xbox via composite video directly - so far so good.
    Also the amp has 3 x RGB inputs with a matching RGB monitor output. I know that I can also connect the DVD player instead of direct to projector but via the RGB input on the amp and then RGB out from the amp to the projector (no upscaling and as with all examples it requires the amp to be turned on in order for the signal to be received and displayed via the projector) - no real benefit but according to Denon some people like to have everything connected via the amp. What is everyone's feelings/opinions of this upscaling and connection method - is it to be recommended do you think or should the amp be bypassed as a video connection if there are no upscaling benefits to be gained.
    Look forward to your comments.
    Cheers
    Rick
     
  2. tpc3416

    tpc3416
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    Rick,

    There is no benefit other than less wires to the TV. Your best picture quality is RGB from the dvd player to the tv. Composite out is composite out, as well as S-Video which is very outdated cabling. RGB from receiver to tv wont make a world of difference if you have red-white-yellow in. Try it out and see for yourself. DVI incorporates audio, so if you are running a flat panel Plasma or LCD on a wall, that eliminates a lot of wires. As far as quality, I've always found connecting directly to the tv for video was the best bet, and dvi and RGB would be your highest quality currently available. There's a lot of money to be made on video cables, so choose wisely. You can purchase them at a fraction of the price in a computer store. They are the same. :eek:
     
  3. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    Rick, you seem to be geting a few terms mixed up here:
    You are talking about 'upconversion' rather than 'upscaling'. Upconversion is as you say taking a composite signal and converting it to S-Video etc. Upscaling is taking a SD video and uping the resolution to HD.
    Also you talk about RGB on your amp. Well the chances are that this is not RGB (yes I know the phono sockets are coloured RGB), but YUV component. The version of RGB that is output via a scart socket is RGBs and this is a 4 phono connection that AFAIK only the new Arcam receivers can accept for video switching.

    Another thing to mention is that the upconversion feature of many of the modern AV receivers will make cabling easier, but it does not improve the quality. The only advantage of useing this feature is to cut down on the number of cables required between sources and display, and as is often the case to allow you to connect more devices than you have inputs on the display.

    The choice of going direct or via the amp is really up to you. In theory going via the amp will result in a slight loss of quality due to the extra connections in the chain, but in real life you are very unlikely to notice this loss.

    Mark.
     
  4. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello both

    I think we need to rewind a little here!

    Many mid price AV Receivers now offer Video Up-Conversion as a 'Convenience' feature - you input video in one format and the AV Receiver can output it in a different format.

    The Video conversion feature enables you to simplify your system wiring - that's it nothing whatsoever to do with improving video quality or video scaling.

    You cannot start with a Composite video signal and make it better by converting it to S-Video or YUV 'Component' video; its simply not possible - the info that was on your DVD or in the Broadcast stream that was 'lost' in your source device (DVD player, Digibox etc) when it was converted to Composite cannot be 'recovered' in the AV Receiver.

    Unless your AV Receiver is fitted with RGB enabled SCART Input and Output sockets it will (in the main) NOT be compatible with the RGB signal your Digibox or DVD player outputs on its SCART socket.

    RGB from a SCART socket is a four core signal - Red, Green, Blue and Sync on Video; your AV Receiver is more than likely capable of Inputting, Up-converting and Outputting Composite (single core), S-Video (two core) and YUV (three core).

    The Denon DVD-2901 has a Digital out and your projector has a Digital In - if the projector is HDCP compliant then use a DVI to DVI cable.

    If the DVI Input on the projector is not HDCP complaint then use the YUV Component out of the DVD player into one of the YUV inputs on your AV Receiver.

    Your X-Box (if its un modded) has SCART RGB out - connect this to the SCART Input on your Digibox.

    Your Digibox has SCART RGB Out - connect this to a JS Technology RGB2YUV converter and in turn connect the converter to the second YUV Input on your AV Receiver.

    If your X-Box has been modded you can get a YUV cable kit and plug the X-Box into the third YUV Input on your AV Receiver.

    Any Legacy video sources (VCR, LDP etc.) can be plugged into the Composite or S-Video Inputs on your AV Receiver - to be Up-converted and Output on the YUV Output of the AV Receiver.

    The YUV Output from your AV Receiver should be connected to the YUV Input on your Projector.

    If your HTPC is DVI enabled you can either connect it directly to the DVI Input on the Projector or via a 2:1 DVI switcher if your DVD player is compatible with your Projector on DVI and you want these two sources to share the single DVI Input.

    I'll let you figure out the audio connectivity :)

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS Avoid DVI cables from PC vendors if your going over 5m via DVI to the projector.
     
  5. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    Thanks lads for the replies and especially Joe for his detailed explanation. The only problem is that according to Denon the amp will not upscale s-video to yuv, it will only allow one to connect 3 x yuv sources via the amp for output via the amps' yuv output.
    Rick
    ps. the other pain in the a**e is that not only does the amp have to be switched on to display the signal on the projector, but also that the amp has to be set on the relevant input, e.g. you can't say have sky on the telly and be playing a cd as the amp would in this case be set as cd being the source and therefore would not display the t.v. picture if that makes sense, unless someone knows a way around this - I know that it would be a rarity, but say for instance that I had the xbox connected for a driving game and instead of listening to the soundtrack I wanted to listen to a cd whilst playing the setup as it would stand wouldn't allow it. (Please no suggestions as to downloading music onto the xbox for this example as that's not what I'm driving(excuse the pun) at).
     
  6. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    One other question I have for you all is that since connecting SKY via the amp (composite being upscaled to s-video) I've noticed a faint ghosting on the projected image. Can anyone suggest a solution, I'm using a 5mtr profigold cable so it's good quality. Is there a setting I'm missing either on the amp or on the Sony hs10 projector?
    Any help is much appreciated.
    Cheers
    Rick
     
  7. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Rick1486

    I think I'll ask Spectre to create a misuse of terminology 'swear box':)

    Remember your AV Receiver is not up-scaling - its simply converting Video formats (Composite to S-Video in this case); your projector is resizing the incoming signal to match its pixel array not the AV Receiver.

    I'd have thought you would have noticed the picture looks completely pants if your starting with Composite at the Digibox then converting it within the AV Receiver then resizing in the projector :)

    You really need to find a way to input RGB via a SCART Input/Adapter on your Projector or use an external converter to convert SCART RGB to YUV and send YUV to the Projector.

    How have you got the various video sources connected to the Projector? - HTPC, DVD, Digibox and X-Box; I'm pretty sure you are seeing a less than optimal image on your current set-up.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  8. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    Joe thanks for the reply. My setup is as follows

    XBOX into amplifier via composite then UPSCALED lol (s-video) from amp to projector.
    PACE Sky box using scart adaptor with just composite into amp and then as above.
    DVD into amp using YUV and then from amp to projector via YUV.
    P.C. directly into projector using DVI cable.

    S-video cable from amp to pj is a 5mtr profigold cable.
    Composite cable from XBOX to amp is a profigold cable.
    Composite cable from Pace SKY box to amp is a tech-link cable (1mtr).
    R-G-Blue cable from DVD to amp is a JVC 1.5mtr. cable.
    R-G-Blue cable from amp to projector is a 5mtr. profigold cable.

    I'm also debating whether to revert to DVD direct to projector via YUV rather than via amp (was just toying with connecting everything via amp if possible and cutting down wires into projector as well as less button presses on the remote to change inputs lol).

    Hope this is clear and look forward to your opinion/replies/suggestions.

    Cheers
    Rick
     
  9. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    Sorry forgot to mention that the sky piccie is a hell of a lot better even this way than it was before when I was just using composite video.

    Also I have managed to get rid of the breakout cable supplied with the projector by using the above method.

    Rick
     
  10. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    p.s. Also forgot to mention that since sky is now via an s-video signal when I look at the skyguide the writing seems to have a yellowish tinge (or maybe I'm imagining it according to my wife lol).
     
  11. geeWcee

    geeWcee
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    Cant you connect Sky any other way to your amp? composite is the worst quality imo.
     
  12. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Rick

    That's 2p in the swear box so far!!!

    The best signals you can get out of your Video sources are as follows:

    DVD - Analogue YUV or Digital DVI/HDMI Out.

    SKY - RGB via SCART.

    X-Box - you can add in RGB SCART or YUV cable kits! (Note - not sure if the YUV cable kit is for modified box's only; best ask an X-Box gamer).

    PC - Digital via DVI.

    If your looking to optimise your set-up and not add in an expensive external Video Processor then I'd suggest the following - though possibly some HS10 owners can chip in with alternative solutions.

    01. DVD - YUV to AV Receiver.

    02. SKY - SCART RGB to RGB2YUV converter (see http://www.js-technology.com/produc...id=36&osCsid=aaed6363498754ef5333575928e8c58b)

    03. RGB2YUV converter - YUV to AV Receiver.

    04. X-Box - RGB cable kit to SKY Digibox RGB 'loop through' SCART socket.

    05. AV Receiver - YUV Out to Projector.

    06. PC - DVI Out to Projector.

    If your Projector is HDCP enabled you can consider HDMI or DVI Out from the DVD player too - though you'll require a DVI switcher to allow the PC and DVD player to share the DVI Input.

    Trust that helps.

    Joe
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Hi Rick,

    By using the amp to convert the Sky from composite to s-video all you are doing is changing where the conversion takes place from the display to the amp, you have discovered the amp appears to do this with less artefacts.

    Is the ghosting uniform across all colours and does it take the form of a fuzziness on one side and a shadow on the other? If so it's probably a Y/C delay issue and there's unlikely to be anythng you can do about it.

    Gordon
     
  14. Rick1486

    Rick1486
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    Gordon thanks. I can't say I've noticed the fuzziness but the ghosting appears to be on the r/h/s of objects if that makes sense.

    As an aside I've also tried to just connect SKY via a scart adaptor out from it and just using an s-video lead both directly into the s-video input on the projector and also via the amp which takes s-video in and outputs via s-video. All I see is a black and white picture - I've tried going into system setup on the SKY box and changing from scart to no scart and PAL to RGB but none of this makes any difference. It seems odd because when using composite out from SKY into the amp and then upconverting to s-video the colour is there. Any ideas?

    Cheers
    Rick
     
  15. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    Only Sky+ boxes (and I think a new Sky box) have an S-Video output. If you connect S-Video from a STB that does not support it then you will get a black & white picture as the colour information is discarded as the scart socket will not have that pin connected. Your amp converts the video signal so the S-Video lead to PJ does give a colour picture.

    Mark.
     
  16. nealgs

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    You can use the XBox Hi-def kit without having to Mod the Xbox. Modding the xbox gives you access to the HD resolutions etc, but is not needed to just be able to use YUV connections.

    We have all our kit going via our Amp/reciever, with the SKY + DVD player going into a JSTech RGB2YUV box prior to going into YUV connections on the AMP.

    DVD player currently goes via the SCART passthru on the SKY box, till we upgrade DVD player to a component capable one (just bought a zektor HDS4.2 unit to cover the fact we will then have 3 YUV devices and only 2 YUV inputs on AMP :thumbsup: )

    S-Video is only used to get AMP setup screens shown on Plasma rather than little LCD display on front of AMP - composite is not used at all - Blahhh! :)

    Gary
     
  17. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello all

    There you go Rick - Nealgs has simplified things even further; no need to route the X-Box via the SKY box simply add in the HiDef YUV cable kit.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS When do you boys find the time for playing games anyway :)
     

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