Very underwelmed by Vinyl's bass

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by harrygrey382, May 7, 2007.

  1. Mr_Sukebe

    Mr_Sukebe
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +214
    Some interesting thoughts. Here's a few replies:
    - Surely the simple test of any recording medium, whether it's analogue tape, vinyl, optical disk, digital tape even MP3 on HD is whether it's fit for purpose. In the case of CD you have a fairly resilient storage medium, which can be replayed on cheapy hardware to a reasonable standard. In the context of high end audio, IMO it has also come of age and can now compete with some really good analogue.
    - A lot of mastering completed for vinyl included taking account of the limitation of the vinyl medium and it's inability to really deal with low bass. There were certainly plenty of articles about this during the introduction of CD.
    - Can't say I dissagree with your comments about digital remastering. Some of them is just plain nasty, but as most modern vinyl releases are based against digital recordings, I don't see either medium having an advantage. It it's been nastily compressed, surely it will end up on both mediums?

    I have to say that if you'd asked me an opinion on CD vs vinyl just 2-3 years ago, I would have happily voted for LP.
    The key point is that I've now heard a lot more systems and have a better understanding of synergy. My view now is that:
    - Vinyl does NOT sound like CD generally (though there are some exceptions). The result is that some of the systems I've heard have been heavily focused to sound great with vinyl, yet somehow sound lousy with CD. For example, I remember hearing a number of LP12/Naim systems which sounded ace on LP, yet could rip your ears off on CD. IMO it's because the owner tweaked his system to sound great with LP.
    Taking that into, single source systems based on CD often sound a LOT better than multi-source systems. More recently I've heard a number of systems in peoples homes where CD was pretty awesome.
    - More recently, my own CD based system has got to the point of sounding pretty damn good. Once you're used to something, it's easy to use it as a benchmark. As such, I was quite astounded at how bad a lot of the vinyl systems sounded at Heathrow. Now I know that you may say "but hey, it's a show etc". My answer is that yep, that's true, however you're talking about groups that SHOULD know how to set things up. So I don't see the show setting as being a full excuse for doing a bad job, especially bearing in mind the sheer cost of some of those systems.

    Hope that helps.
     
  2. danburbridge

    danburbridge
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I see you mentioned you are going to replace it witha GL75 - this is a deck with staggeringly good bass IMO due to the idler design.

    Make sure you replinth it in a high mass plinth - don't try to use any kind of suspension with it - it will make it sound terrible.

    Lots of great info on lencos here: http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/
     
  3. harrygrey382

    harrygrey382
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    well good to hear it. Yes I am planning on going for a high mass, many layers of playwood (maybe with an MDF one thrown in) I was thinking.
    I notice you are in Bristol, and have a L75, a Gainclone, and MLTL Fostex speakers.
    If you are near enough, would it be too much to ask for a little look at your system - I've always had in mind to build a pair of MLTLs with FE207s and possibly a gainclone. Not to mention seeing a an L75 set up and running...
    I'm in Redland BTW
     
  4. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,769
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,243
    _ previous comment by overkill - about CD being compressed - I think you are talking about dynamic range compression which of course is different and done on purpose in the mix. I was saying that CD is not a compressed data format(PCM) like MP3.


    I know there can never be a resolution to the which is best augument, but look at it this way, if the processing power of today had been around when CD was invented we would not have such a high quality format as CD. We would have gone straight down the MP3 route!
     
  5. Helicon

    Helicon
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    5,016
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +261
    Only just came across this thread for some reason, but i'll echo 95% of everything Overkill has stated.

    Turntables rely on high tolerance engineering to sound good, whereas CD players don't, so cheap CD players will sound 'cleaner'. But taking into account the whole listening experience, the CD player will lose out the majority of the time, regardless of price. CD players just sound flat, false and overblown compared to a turntable.

    Harrygrey382 - how did the wiring check go? Maybe you could pop your turntable round to your friends house and try it in their system just to see if the results are the same. I owned a Q-Deck in the 80's, using an Ortofon VMS20 cart if i remember rightly. I don't remember a lack of bass, but i do however remember enjoying listening to vinyl, which is the main thing :)
     
  6. harrygrey382

    harrygrey382
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    yeah well maybe I'm not trying to coax something out that isn't there then. I haven't been able to do the wiring check as still studying for exams (haven't even started yet, will be back early June :( )
    I might also try it with an AT120E/T, I here very good things about them and they seem very good value
     
  7. danburbridge

    danburbridge
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sure!

    So long as I can borrow your Stylus Gauge and test disc :)

    I'm pretty busy for the next couple of weeks - but would imagine we can probably sort something out - would love to hear the Tannoys too :)

    PS - my lenco is still somewhat rough and ready - it works but it aint pretty :)
     
  8. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    This is my main problem with CD - and always has been. I happily accept that vinyl has (severe!) limitations, many of which get right on my pecs', but sadly, after working with hifi for many years, and having got through hundreds of systems I find CD to be just that - unrealistic. No matter now hard I try to force myself (should I have to force myself?) the instrumentation, even on very expensive CD players, some of which in fact sound worse than cheaper models in this sense, does not sound at all like the instrument really does.

    Example? I was listening to Tool last night. Lateralus is a well recorded album, and a band at the peak of it's considerable powers. Yet to me Danny Carey's drums just don't sound like drums. Just someone banging on a piece of what sounds like perspex. Please note, in no way does this hugely detract from what is an excellent album, regardless of medium, but it does reveal why I stick, for all it's faults, with analogue.

    Unfortunately mr_sukebe, there was lots written at the start of the CD era, most of which has since been exposed as marketing hype and sheer bunk. Figures about distortion have since been exposed as an outright lies, claims about CD's durability and longevity proved false, claims about vinyls weaknesses since proved unfounded with improved technology, claims about CD's storage ability also called into serious question, with finally, new media emerging.

    As someone working in hifi during the final 'putsch' to get rid of vinyl the amount of garbage being poured forth by the hifi press was both embarrassing and totally in-accurate. By contrast the hifi businesses internal press was laughing at the claims being made, and cynically commenting on what was really being done and why.

    Out of interest, while I too have heard some pretty shabby Vinyl based systems at shows, I've also heard plenty of CD based systems that sounded lousy as well. Again, there is no excuse either way, but setups at shows are generally hit and miss - and always have been.

    On single source systems again, I can't see why this comes into it? Mainly because it cuts both ways, and in fact since 91' has been geared towards CD based systems anyway. Vinyl based systems have been a thing of the past for nearly twenty years. Only very recently have TT's been making a comeback and that's into multi source systems.

    A CD based systems is also much easier to set sounding 'impressive'. CD has relatively little setup needs, and modern gear is set up to be based around it. If a system doesn't sound great after spending a lot of money on it, I'd be on the phone to the dealer.

    However, all too often they don't. Wonder why...............;)

    Finally, my own system is pretty much geared around the CD player and the sound on all mediums is as good as it's going to get - bar spending even more. Which her' indoors has vetoed. ;) The TT once setup correctly just get's on with it. With the CD player I've spent years trying different cables, stands, feet, disc improvers, different players, and still I don't get the pleasure I do from slapping on an LP.

    And still, the search for CD nirvana goes on........... :)

    Hope that adds to the sum........;)
     
  9. harrygrey382

    harrygrey382
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I haven't actually got the gauge and test disc yet, I'll need to order the gauge from the US (unless someone can point me to one in the UK?) and I've heard of quite a few other good test records so I'm still deciding...
    But I'm a bit busy for the next couple (at least) of weeks so should have it all by then.
    I'd love to show off my Tannoys, however, they're at home (west sussex - I'm a student in Bristol). If you were ever down the Petersfield way, you'd be very welcome though!
    Don't mind about rough and readyness, afterall, it's all about the sound eh? What are and cart have you got on it btw?
     
  10. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    What do dave Grohls drums sound like on that one ? :hiya:
     
  11. Mr_Sukebe

    Mr_Sukebe
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +214
    To respond:
    You're dead right that a lot of rubbish was written about CD and it's capabilities. Having said that, there's no getting away from the fact that it IS more durable that LP and doesn't suffer with the same issues at the bass end of the spectrum as LP.

    Interesting how you state that CD and LP sound different, yet you don't understand why a system should or could be optimised for one of the other.
    My personal experiences are that systems can be optimised. eg. for whatever reason, a lot of CD based systems work great with valves, whilst LP works great with transistors. I know that it's a MASSIVE generalisation, but I'm hoping you can understand that point I'm trying to suggest.

    Ref bad CD systems. Yet, certainly heard a number of them. A couple of years ago I heard a £30k system including a Wadia 861se, Bel Canto EVO amps and some enourmous speakers. MASSIVE sound, but truly awful to listen to. So it certainly IS possible to put a badly synergistic system together. If you believe that throwing money at a problem solves it, then shame on you.

    So now I really do believe that some of the best digital based sources can challenge a good record based system.
     
  12. Helicon

    Helicon
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    5,016
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +261
    About 15 years ago i heard a Pioneer PL12D compared to a well known manufacturers entry level £1000 CD player. Given the turntable was about £30/40 in the seventies, it beat the CD player by a huge margin in the listenability stakes, and just sounded more natural.

    When i owned an LP12 around the same time, it made me realise how false and overblown bass actually is on CD players. Any CD player.

    And after setting up a Michel Gyrodec with SME IV silver wired arm and Ortofon MC25, i was stunned by how clear and dynamic it was, noise free silence, and level of detail and musicality i'd never heard using the same piece of music from any CD player.

    Yes, CD can sound good, it can sound amazing sometimes. But i'll wager there's more poor sounding CD based systems around than there are vinyl based ones. For all it's faults, vinyl is still the most enjoyable domestic audio format to date.
     
  13. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,997
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,238
    Too many generalisations. As I vinyl fan and CD fan I enjoy both for their individual strengths. CD is convenient and is pretty damned good. Sometimes I prefer it to the vinyl version, sometimes I prefer the vinyl version to the CD.

    Most times I pick CD, because I just want to listen to some music and not get hung up on the exact timbre of a Ludwig Acrolite, because more often than not the recording process makes a mockery out of quality of the system you own. Yes, older recordings sound better on vinyl because thats the format that was prevalent at the time, but I find that the distinction is not so clear with modern bands.

    Overkill mentioned a Tool album having drums that sounded like bits of perspex, well I dont own the vinyl version so I cant say. I do have a copy of Nevermind by Nirvana on vinyl and on CD. In comparison the difference is not clear cut, DGs drums sound the same on both, but anyway as Im wailing along with KC and tapping out the fills and groove on my drumpad at the time it really doesn't matter.
     
  14. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    I never said that vinyl was more durable than CD in terms of wear and tear. It isn't. End of. Vinyl is a fright to keep clean. However, we don't know about CD's longevity yet, and certainly from the experience of the PC world it's not looking good. I somehow doubt some of my CD's will still be going strong after 45 years, which some of my classical vinyl is.

    The issues at the Bass end of Vinyl are hardly the end of the World and again over-egged. Tbh, the extended Bass from my TT floors the CD player, and that's with two very good front ends in direct comparison.

    I do understand why a system is often optimised for one source or another. However, from selling hifi for years, I don't see why it should be. There are plenty of combinations that will give you great sound from both. It's just laziness, or bias towards either source that leads to biasing the systems sound one way or the other. It's also a myth that CD sounds better with Valve. People have tried to use valve systems to quote; 'tame CD's rough edges'. But, hang on, I thought CD was perfect! :cool: I've found systems with Valves and trannys will work fine with either/or. It's really up to what the listener prefers not what suits one front end or the other.

    If that comment was directed at me, then no I don't believe throwing money at a system can cure it's ill's. Far from it. I sat with a mate of mine demoing a whole range of gear at his shop on quiet Thursday last year, and some of the mid range (CD based) systems sounded quite superb - whereas some of the high end systems we put together, on the basis of recommendations I hasten to add, sounded absolutely awful.

    On the last point, I would beg to differ, in particular as the best system I've ever heard was vinyl based, as was the second, but that's how it should be, it'd be boring if we all liked the same thing! :D

    Harrygrey, which gauge are you after?
     
  15. harrygrey382

    harrygrey382
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Defo after a shure gauge Overkill, wouldn't want any of this digital stuff for setting up an analogue source eh?

    PS this discussion is entertaining, good for procrastination. Must say though, I don't need much convincing re vinyl, in the context of the systems I've heard I find it (without repeating and sounding cliched...) so much more real and less fatiguing.
     
  16. RichardG

    RichardG
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    211
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Cardiff, UK
    Ratings:
    +27
    I find Lateralus absolutely appalling tbh - it seems to have been mastered for 14 year olds with the UltraBass button stuck on - any decent hifi seems to really struggle to get any lower frequencies out of it (sounds great on my Discman tho, hence my suggestion it wasn't made for decent hifi)

    It's strange because 10,000 Days is entirely different and is immense - exactly what you want.

    I haven't heard a vinyl version of Lateralus.

    Just my 2p...
     
  17. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    Harry, there's an SFG-2 on Ebay new for about £22, and an older model (still an SFG-2) that's not been used (apparently). You can also pick them up from Audiophilecandy.com for about £25. I can't post links as I'm not sure whether that's allowed?
     
  18. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    This often puzzles me. No offence Richard, but I have no problem with the deep bass on this CD? I have often heard people be-moaning the lack of bass on Metallica CD's and LP's but again, I've never found that, bar Master of Puppets. I don't use tone controls (heaven forfend!) my CD player (a Primare) isn't famous for having over-rich bass, nor are any of the other system components.

    But, I do find the metal cam MA's I use on my other system do make many CD's sound bass light...........

    Hifi, what a pain in the **** eh? :D

    Agree on 10,000 days, it is a great recording. However, I did see someone bemoaning that recently!?
     
  19. harrygrey382

    harrygrey382
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    ah yes, that older ones just come on. Do they have any moving parts that could stiffen with age and therefore make them innacurate?
    Otherwise £20 isn't gonna break the bank
     
  20. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    No. It's simply a bar with a slider at one end, which rocks on cutouts on a support. Very much like any other scales. The stylus sits in a groove at one end, while the sliding bar adjusts the weight at the other. You simply move the bar (and adjust the tracking weight) until it balances. The modern SFG-2's have a mirror which shows when the bar is balanced and this makes it very easy to see if it's spot on. Not sure about the older units though..........
     
  21. emleymoor

    emleymoor
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    5
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hi harrygrey382,

    You have raised an interesting question about vinyl replay. I have to agree with the general consensus on these posts that vinyl reproduction can have somewhat less bass extension than CD. That is my experience, however I feel that it depends quite a lot on the particular pressing - for example 12" singles have a greater capacity for much greater modulation and can provide really very good bass, whereas, it seems to me, some LP's appear to have some bass roll-off. However I personally find the results satisfactory for the most part.

    As the other knowledgeable contributors have indicated here, the final reproduction does have a great deal to do with careful component matching and synergy as well as the final set-up 'fine tuning' adjustments.

    You mention the Audio Technica AT120E cartridge as maybe solving your perceived problem:

    I use an AT120E cartridge and would happily recommend it for its excellent detail retrieval, good dynamics, amazing smoothness and control and for all round clarity and great musical enjoyment. However, and I think this could be a big however, I wouldn't call it a weighty cartridge. I feel that, if anything, the AT120E is slightly bright which may make it seem even more bass-light in some systems.

    As with any cartridge careful matching to the phono preamp is a major consideration, paying attention to capacitance loading. (discussed on this web page: http://www.arar93.dsl.pipex.com/mds975/Content/vinyl02.html#preamplifiers

    I also use an AT110E which I would say has a little more bass weight than the AT120E but is not as refined overall, which is why I would prefer the AT120E.

    I have also owned a couple of Ortofon cartridges from years gone by and while excellent designs I doubt that they would offer enormous bass weight, but it is some years since I heard an Ortofon so my memory could be wrong.

    Others will be able to comment, I am sure, but I get the feeling from many other reviews and comments that I have read in the past that a Goldring 1006 or 1012 or one of the Grado range of cartridges may offer more bass weight than an Ortofon or an Audio Technica.

    Certainly your choice of an ESP P06 is a really excellent one since, like no other commercially available preamp, the ESP P06 design has a 2 or 3 dB lift in the bass frequencies below 50 Hertz compared to the standard RIAA curve.

    I would put a bet on the fact that no other phono preamp you may care to mention at almost any price will improve on the ESP P06 in this area. The ESP P06 design also has a very balanced treble output that can perfectly tame any hints of brightness.

    As others have correctly alluded to, there is a case for 'tuning' a system for vinyl playback. Of course when a given system is 'tuned' for a good vinyl balance it may be quite unsuitable for CD replay. This may be as simple as positioning the speakers quite differently for vinyl compared to CD playback for example.

    The one thing you must get right, as others have rightly said, is the ultimate technical set up of the turntable itself: Positioning and levelling of turntable, type of cartridge, cartridge alignment, vertical tracking angle, tracking weight and bias force.

    Some areas must be spot on such as tracking weight which needs to be done with some good scales and cartridge alignment which has to be very accurate and done with a proper protractor (e.g. this excellent free one which can be downloaded from vinylengine.com: http://www.vinylengine.com/manuals_tonearm_protractors.shtml )

    With other 'tuning' adjustments such as turntable positioning and mounting, types of feet, platter mats and different cartridges and pre-amps etc there can be no rights and wrongs, just what sounds best to you and what arrangement meets your desires the best.

    I must say that the ESP P06 preamp has to be a very good place to start for added bass weight for the reasons mentioned above.

    Hope that helps.

    I look forward to reading your results and solutions here in due course.

    Good luck.
    --
     
  22. overkill

    overkill
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,865
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Murkeyside
    Ratings:
    +1,207
    I think a lot of this is generalisation though. As Karkus has said in the past, the recording itself plays a huge part, and it's then down to the front end to make the best of it. Overall, I have no problem with bass extension from my TT, nor have I ever with any of them, bar my first, and budget deck. Whereas I've had CD players that have had very poor (to non existent) bass extension. I've also heard, through working in hifi, a lot of CD players, and frankly I must admit I'm a little bemused that the consensus seems to be that the bass weight of CD players is consistently better. It never was among any of the staff I worked with, the opposite in fact. Only the 'CD addicts' among us clung to that view, and they were the managers with a vested interest in flogging CD's and CD players.;)

    It's also interesting to note that we may be getting caught here. The hi-fi reviewers originally criticised Vinyls bass, not because it was less extended than CD, I would argue it isn't, but that TT's could not control Bass as well as CD, something I would, under the price cut-off we mentioned earlier, agree with. It was not therefore lack of bass we were being told was the problem, but the inability to stop it booming! In other words it had the effect of giving too Bassy a sound when compared to CD.

    Hence people seem to be coming at this from different angles.
     
  23. Mr_Sukebe

    Mr_Sukebe
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +214
    As it happens, I do agree with your comment about CD players.
    My earlier thoughts on CD were aimed at the format itself. From a technical perspective, CD "should" have the capability to have better bass. The key point is whether that it utilsed. IMO most CD players I've heard sound pants. It's only since being able to play with some seriously good CD players that I'd say they're capable of competing with LP as a source.
     
  24. Mr_Sukebe

    Mr_Sukebe
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +214
    Hey, didn't realise there was a second post of yours to reply to. Either way, here goes:
    CD longevity: I'm surprised that you're questioning the potential lifespan of CD. It is after all over 20 years old now. As I recently cut all of my CDs to FLAC, I've had a reason to go through even my first CDs. Just two of them had any significant level of errors during burning, and as it happens, both of them were quite recent. To me that implies that they're probably not going to struggle lasting as long as vinyl to me.

    System optimisation: I can't say why I think this should be so, but it just seems to be. I've found very few record decks that sound like CD. As many say, LPs seem to have that certain "je ne sais pas". The only exceptions that come to mind are Michell decks. The ones I've heard sounded very similar to CD. I know that it is a massive generalisation, but LP seems to have some of that "euphony" that some valve gear adds. My more recent listening does seem to suggest that CD mated with valve does create a lovely sound, just as say a record deck with a good transistor amp (e.g. LP12 fronting a Naim system).

    Whilst I appreciate your additional experience of selling hi-fi, can I ask what you were selling? If you worked in say Richer sounds, that would give you a somewhat different view to if you sold say mainly Linn/Naim kit, or say Wadia/Krell.
     
  25. alexs2

    alexs2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Messages:
    13,967
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,671
    I'd agree with that by saying that like yourself I've heard very few TTs that sound like CD,but it's also been said that additions of things like off-board PSUs,and a number of the aftermarket mods for e.g Linns,can bring the sound closer to CD,if that's what was required.

    The best one I've heard so far in terms of music,and being able to relax and enjoy was an Origin Live Sovereign/Conqueror combination(and I cant remember the cartridge)alone well into the £6k plus bracket,which had all of the pace and control of CD but was so smooth and well-defined.....the CD comparison that day was a Shanling CDT300.

    It doesnt mean to say that I dont like CD or that I think CD is inferior...just different,and maybe the 2 offer alternative perspectives....what was said above about the quality of recordings on both CD and vinyl is also very important.
     
  26. irrecs

    irrecs
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    G'day all, I've just joined this forum and I'm from Australia! I have a great interest in vinyl myself and there are a couple of other issues that may be relevant to this discussion.

    Firstly, the matter of the cartridge/ tonearm resonance. It is generally considered that ideally it should be placed between 8 and 12 Hz, but often due to high cartridge compliance and/ or tonearm mass, the exact resonance can be either side of the range. Depending on the exact position of the cartridge/ tonearm resonance, this can give the effect of higher bass 'weight', although this may or may not be desirable for various reasons.

    As correctly mentioned previously by 'Emleymoor', the question of cartridge/ phono preamp 'matching', is very important and often understated in my opinion. With typical moving magnet cartridges there is often an electrical 'resonance' between the cartridge coil inductance and the 'incidental' capacitance in the tonearm wiring, interconnects and preamp wiring. Often this 'resonance' falls within the audio band and at some frequency in the treble range.

    As mentioned previously, this can result in 'peaky' audio that may have the effect of making the bass sound less apparent and 'strong' than it should be. Indeed this has happened to me. Cheaper interconnects often have surprisingly (very) high capacitance. It is worthwhile measuring the overall capacitance with a good capacitance meter to check the overall value of capacitance. This is easily done by clipping the capacitance meter across the interconnect leads and 'looking back' into the tonearm wiring, but remember to remove the cartridge itself for this test! Good wiring should not exceed around 180 picofarads at the most. Have a look at this page for the effects of load capacitance on cartridge frequency response. http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html It's quite illuminating!

    There must be a few very satified users of the ESP P06 phono stage, as I use one myself that I've built. Regards, irrecs.
     
  27. Nimby

    Nimby
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    9,261
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    The Danish Bacon Factory
    Ratings:
    +709
    Welcome to AV Forums, irrecs. :)

    I spent decades playing with various turntables. Modding Thorens and changing arms and cartridges became routine. Other family members also had Thorens TTs with various different arms and cartridges for direct comparison.

    I even made complete turntables and a number of pickup arms using my own ideas. I played about with chassis design and geometry, springing, damping and armboards. Then the LP12 came along with a couple of different arms including Ittok V111 and yet more expensive moving coil cartridges.

    Vinyl is not really about bass IMO. It is about reality, emotion and musical enjoyment. CD thrashes vinyl on bass quality, power and depth IMO. I haven't used my LP12 for years. CD offers convenience, silent backgrounds and a vast repertoire. Oh, and bass to die for. (If you can reproduce it properly.) As long as you don't ever remind yourself how gorgeous vinyl can sound then CD is very listenable.

    If you are experiencing slow cone movement then your arm mass/cartridge compliance are seriously mismatched. Get a lower compliance cartridge to push your system resonance above record warp frequency.
     
  28. irrecs

    irrecs
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for the welcome Nimby. It is appreciated. All ok. Yes you are quite right about the potential tonearm/ high compliance cartridge problems. One of my older turntables with a rather high mass arm has this problem.

    I had to incoporate some severe additional sub bass filtering to alleviate this problem. One question, does anybody make "low compliance" moving magnet cartridges these days? From what I seen, high compliance seems to be the order of the day, at least here in Australia! Regards, irrecs.
     
  29. alexs2

    alexs2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Messages:
    13,967
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,671
    Moving magnets,I dont know,but many MC's are still pretty low compliance items,even though in general many are more compliant now than in the 70s.

    From memory,some of the Stantons were quite low,but those models were mostly aimed at the DJ market,whereas the HiFi ones(pretty much all of the manufacturers) were,and remain medium to high.
     
  30. Nimby

    Nimby
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    9,261
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    The Danish Bacon Factory
    Ratings:
    +709
    The Linn mms were quite low. There's a K18 on Ebay at the moment listing cu as 12.
     

Share This Page

Loading...