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Vantage or Lumagen

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by JetJockey, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi all

    A simple question really (or maybe not).

    How will the new Vantage HD compare to the Lumagen HDP and Lumagen HDP Pro? :rolleyes:

    Thanks, Gerald. :)
     
  2. Welwynnick

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    Yup, that's the question I would like answered. The best scalers at the moment seem to be the VisionHDP (£1300) and the Crystalio 2300 (£1500). Both manufacturers will have VSX/HQV models next year which will in all likelyhood be the HD scalers of choice, but will probably cost at least £3-4k.
    The Vantage-HD will be the cat amongst the pidgeons with probably comparable performance, but about half the price. In some respects the Vantage will not have anything like the same configureabilty - no custom resolutions, refresh rates, or gamma correction, and configurations are programmed by input rather than by source. These are expected in a forthcoming Pro version (same as their existing products).

    Many people will insist these are all essential features, but I think that will only get answered when some hopefully experienced AND open-minded people get their hands on one.

    Now is probably not the time to go making any big financial commitments!

    Nick
     
  3. JetJockey

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    A very refreshing viewpoint there. :smashin:

    Have had a chat with Calibre re the Vantage and asked for comparisons with the Lumagen. They promised to email me info, but what turned up was just what you can get from their site with no specifics.

    I do wonder about the lack of custom resolutions though? If it is so important to feed the signal to a Plasma 1:1 style (pixel mapping) for that "snap" that Gizlaroc mentioned, then surely the Vantage is going to fall down in this area?? :confused:

    Or does this depend on whether the Display panel can do a good enough job with an "approximation" of it's native resolution.

    Gerald.
     
  4. gandley

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    I think the vantage HD will have selectable popular resolutions from a preset list. So you just need to make sure your native res is supported.
    I think the lumagen will up the ante though

    And yes you need to be 1:1 else there is no point getting the scaler as you then start having scaling done twice = not good.
     
  5. Welwynnick

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    I don't think the lack of customisation is going to stop it producing some very good pictures, but I have had lots of discussion already with Calibre about that sort of thing, and they are quite inflexible about it. If they gave us everything with this model, nobody would have any reason to buy their Pro model next year. That will presumably have the same sort of features, performance and price as the Crystalio II and Radiance XT!

    Calibre have just announced that the Vantage is being distributed by Invision UK, in Stowmarket. I just got in touch with their Steve Beahan, who said it would be available from the end of November. The retail price will be £1995, which is pretty good, but rather higher than Calibre let me to believe (c.£1600).

    I'm rather mindful of all the stories I've heard about what people have to do to pixel map a scaler to a display, so I'd have a good hard look at the Crystalio II first. It looks much better, too.

    I suspect I will probably get a Vantage, but I would first like to see it working with whatever source and display I have. I simply wouldn't worry about that sort of thing with a Lumagen or Crystalio.

    Nick
     
  6. JetJockey

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    Hmmm...

    Crystalio II you say.

    Gerald. :suicide:
     
  7. madshi

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    Well, the jury is still out about which of the new chips (Realta HQV <-> Gennum VXP) is better PQ wise. So I think the top video processors will be the Crystalio II and the Lumagen Radiance. I think both will probably use their chips to their fullest potential. Then somewhen (maybe mid/end next year? nobody knows) we'll also see DVDO's next video processor, presumely called VP40, which will hopefully be a good contender PQ wise.

    Personally, I'm not sure about the DragonFly and Vantage-HD video processors, yet. My impression is that they're not as open to improvement suggestions as DVDO, Lumagen and PixelMagic are. Algolith and Calibre still have to prove that they offer good support. But if they do, then they may also be good contenders. At least they seem to have good prices compared to Crystalio II and Lumagen Radiance.

    Anyway, the video processor future looks quite interesting! I just wish video processor prices would go down similar to plasma prices... ;)
     
  8. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Remember if the main purpose is to watch SD or HD film, advanced video deinterlacing means *****.
     
  9. Welwynnick

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    Absolutely. That is why I always say the Visions HDP is still such a strong contender. Sounds like it isn't too shabby on 1080i video, too, these days.
    Yes, but they are the only ones that are available in the very near future. No mere coincidence?

    The differences between the two seem to be that the Vantage has better interconnections and integrated video filtering, but the Dragonfly is supposed to get customised resolutions as a firmware upgrade in the near future.

    It's good to have choices, even if they are not easy ones! And don't forget HTPCs!

    Nick
     
  10. JetJockey

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    Don't get me started on HTPC's Nick.

    Just looking to build one of those now to go in cabinet with the other gear. Already up to my eyes researching the best OS / Chipset / Software. Dohh!

    BTW. You say film is as good with an HDP. what sort of film are we talking here. I thought all film / outside footage nowadays was shot with the same type of camera as studio / video footage.

    Looks as if I am Mistaken.

    Gerald. :oops:
     
  11. madshi

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    The Crystalio II is still on target for xmas release... :smashin:
     
  12. Welwynnick

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    JetJockey, when people here say film, they are refering to the physical source of the original recording - that is literaly photographic film, as in cinemas and cine cameras.

    The significance is that the original capture is progressive, and is only later interlaced for boadcast and storage. Because alternating interlaced fields came from the same original progressive frame, these can be reconstructed by film mode de-interlacing, which has to identify and weave matched pairs of interlaced fields. Film is also shot at 24fps, and fields are repeated for video.

    TV video is a very different case because it is interlaced at the original point of recording, so a progressive original never existed. It is more difficult to reconstruct what the original progressive image WOULD have been. However, it does give you 50 or 60 frames per second.

    Now, let me start on HTPCs.........

    Nick
     
  13. gizlaroc

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    May not be a problem if the resolutions in the scaler match the display and are standard vesa timings, you may get 1:1 mapping no problem.
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Yes, the benefts of the advanced cadence detection in the HQV/ gennum units is that they recognise weirdo cadence breaks. Then , when they fall back to video mode de-interlacing they use edge adaptive correlation to smooth out the fact they have. For the mass material we watch right now though the current SD de-interlacing chipsets are good for film detection and as Jeff notes there will likely not be many cases where the new chipsets would beat them. The scaling algorithms they use have yet to be fully evaluated I'd say while the current Lumagen process is looking good right now.....

    With HD we have still to see what happens. The Lumagens have a new video mode for 1080i that is pretty cool. They are working on film detection for them as we speak (I seem to have been saying that for last 6 months...but it's true....honest....)

    For me the thing that's going to sort out the forthcoming, and what sorts out the current crop, is the added value features that can be enabled and fitted in. The 11 point gamma stuff that Lumagen put in. The 48Hz genlock output for film sources incoming at 60Hz. The colour decoder control and seperate channel Y/C delays. Auto calibration of analogue component inputs.....all these things enable the best performance from the hardware inside and the hardware connected to it. I fully exoect the compettion to impliment these things in their new devices...and of course I expect Lumagen to do other more advanced tricks to stay ahead...

    We read all through this and other forums that the things which are important are implimentation of the devices...the actual devices being almost secondary (of course you need to reach a critical performance to start with).

    I'm sure Vantage will be an excellent device. I know HDP already is.

    Gordon
     
  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    If I don;t reply to anything on here for a few days it's because we are still in middle of mmove and broadband isn't enabled till Tuesday....cheers guys

    G
     
  16. JetJockey

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    Cheers Gordon.

    Hope the move is going well. It's a stressfull time.

    Yup, I'm sure the Lumagen is a fantastic product.

    The only thing that has me worried, is that it does not switch or sync up the audio also. I'm sure that the ability of, for example, the Vantage to do this will help it's case more than a little.

    I am just sitting here as we speak, with a piece of paper and a pencil, trying to work out how to get the whole system working with the minimum of switching. :rolleyes:

    Regards, Gerald. :)
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The newer units with HQV and Gennum chips will require to switch audio as their processing will take longer than that of current models. With Lumagen it is possible to use them (for most folk) without external lip sync correction devices but the more advanced processing in newer units will delay audio to such an extent that it makes sense to deal with it in the video processor as many audio processors will not have enough capabilities.

    Gordon
     
  18. JetJockey

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    Hi Gordon

    Yes I suspected as much.

    However............... If the newer processors are also switching the Audio, this is a handy facility (I think), as it will simplify the audio routing / switching in the following equipment.

    Just a thought.

    Gerald :)
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Having one device do switching has it's drawbacks as well as it's advantages. For audio digital switching including delay, in a high end system, I'd be wanting to make sure that no degradation of the audio quality was taking place. You have TAG I think? They went to some lengths to add the sync link in place to remove induced jitter in the signal transmission. I wonder how much care and attention is paid to that in the delay section of video processors........I have no idea myself but when I have a chance to do the demo in a suitable system I will.....

    Gordon
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Please don;t think I'm having a go at manufacturers who have delay built in, Im not. Just pointing out something that many folk seem to have forgotten about. Lumagen will have to deal with this too in the Radiance.
     
  21. JetJockey

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    Yup.

    A very valid point!

    Gerald. :thumbsup:

    P.S. You need to get a decent picture for your Skype profile.
    That dark outline looks a bit sinister :D
     
  22. Welwynnick

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    The new Vantage-HD is supposed to be shipping about now.

    Has anyone here ordered one?

    Nick
     
  23. Rahmorak

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    Heyas Nick,

    I imagine we will hear reports on the avsforum in the next week or two although it would be handy if we had someone who can report on how well it deals with PAL sources.

    I am trying to get a demo of the VantageHD before I make up my mind to buy the VantageHD or ProHDP, but it is looking like next year at the moment assuming my dealer can source a demo unit.

    R.
     
  24. gandley

    gandley
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    Where do they have the Vantage HD up for sale in the UK?
     
  25. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    The Vantage-HD (UK SRP £1,995.00 ) is due to arrive with the UK Distributor Mid Dec 05 - no demo units as yet!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  26. Welwynnick

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  27. gandley

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    Thats not a bad SRP, so perhaps a tad lower at retail.

    Im confused TBH, i held of getting lumagens current line as i realy want to go with HQV, at the same time i like the sound of the Radiance but i just dont think my setup will do that justice. perhaps im wrong, but i dont think i need anything to flexible but at the same time i dont want to under do it and it will have to work well with a 1080p display.

    Depends on how much the radiance will cost at retail i guess, but i dont think i will spend more than £2500 for a video processor.
     
  28. Welwynnick

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    Aside from the Radiance XT and Crystallio 2, the new bunch of HQV & VSX processors do not seem to have the same flexibility with display interfacing that even my poxy little Focus CS-1 has.

    Mindful of what happens when you connect ANYTHING to a high def plasma over a digital interface at the moment, I am hopeful that once the 1080 sources and displays are here, there will be ONE resolution to deal with at all levels. None of this 1024x768 display and 1280x720 input muddle.

    It will be difficult to justify spending several thousand pounds on any non-essential equpment. The cheaper VSX/HQV processors will have 1920x1080p50 & 60 as selectable output formats, and should pixel-match with the corresponding displays. And if they are not quite right, then a bit of H & V sizing will fit the bill. With digital interfaces, we shouldn't have to worry about sync pulses or front porches, so all those expert-only customisations shouldn't be necessary, should they? :rolleyes:

    That being the case, we can buy a Vantage or TheatreSync safe in the knowledge that it will do exactly what we want. However, on recent anecdotal experience, I think I will wait until someone else has done it first, and in the meantime, I will keep my eyes on a Vision HDP.

    Nick
     
  29. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Seeing as its Friday night and everyone should have their acronym anoraks on by now I thought I should point out its the Lumagen RadianceXD (as in Dual Output) that's been announced as the new 'Flagship' HQV powered Video Processor from Lumagen.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  30. Welwynnick

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    Here is a very interesting post from the AVS today:

    Hi All,

    I just found this site and thought I'd join. I am a video engineer currently evaluating the HQV processor (Realta) from Silicon Optix. The company I work for is considering licensing HQV for inclusion into our product line. I've been comparing the Realta chips performance against 5 competators and have learned a great deal about all of them.

    So if I can answer any questions please feel free to ask. Here are some of my observations to date:

    Realta is by far the best single chip video processor out there. For starters it is the only solution that includes all of the features one would expect: deinterlacing, scaling, frame rate conversion, motion adaptive temporal and compression noise reduction, detail enhancement, adaptive contrast enhancement, etc etc etc. All of the other solutions leave out one or more of these features.

    In most processing steps Realta is only slightly better than it's nearest competator, which is still pretty darn good. But where HQV and Realta really shine is in their temporal noise reduction and compresion artifact removal. No other solutions come close to what HQV has achieved. But it is not without cost as the Realta is also the largest chip, consumes the most power, and requires the most external memory to support their multi frame temporal adaptive algorithms. The other area it really excells in is frame rate conversion - definately best in class.

    Regarding flexibility, the Realta chip can be programmed to implement literally any HV timing and any arbitrary scale factor (to a limit of course). Programming specific modes is a complicated task though as it requires in depth knowledge of the chip architecture, so NEC has only implemented a very limited subset of what is possible. I'm sure over time the list will grow.

    Anyway, that's all I can say for now. I have to get back to my meeting....

    Rimshot
     

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