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Value of second hand LCD projector

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Comer, Jul 4, 2002.

  1. Comer

    Comer
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    Ok, how about this then:

    Does anyone have an idea of the value of a 12 month old LCD pj with a new value of about £2,250, all pixels perfect, in excellent condition with 300 hours on the clock.

    I'm planning to sell my pj in the classifieds but have absolutely no idea of how much to look for.


    Any suggestions greatly appreciated




    Conor
     
  2. mike.hutch

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    It would probably help if you posted what model it is. :rolleyes:
     
  3. jonny m

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    Comer
    Are you selling your mt4 to get a ae100 ?? if you are they are both the same spec of lcd, ok 848 pixels wide on the ae100 to 800 on the mt4, I personally dont think it would be worth it, or do I remember right - is it because your getting the jerky image from the mt4??

    j
     
  4. Comer

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    Yes I'm selling the MT3 (not MT4) because I am getting jerky motion using a HCPC, apart from that it's an excellent projector especially for someone who wishes to use a DVD player. That said, nobody else watching movies notices this jerky motion on slow pans, I'm the only one that it seems to bother.

    I'm just considering the AE100 but I'm quite a bit concerned about the failure rate of the machine, my MT3 has never given me any cause for concern in that area. But I really don't intend to spend alot of money on an upgrade, the slight jerky motion is really only apparent three to four times per movie (never on some movies) and like I've said, the picture quality (especially from a PC) is really excellent.


    Thanks for the replys and if anyone has any idea of how much I could expect to get for it, I'd appreciate your opinions. (especially if it's a five figure number :D)



    Conor
     
  5. jonny m

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    Comer
    I take it you have exhausted all avenues with your htpc, have you tried component out via ati dongle or the xcard? I take it you've changed refresh rates etc with no difference??

    A hundred quid of a xcard for component out will cost you far less than the amount you will lose selling your pj, and also as you state the ae100 has had some reliability concerns.

    I would try everything I could beside exchange the pj, even use a prog scan dvd player instead.

    j
     
  6. Comer

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    jonny

    Everything that u say makes perfect sense, it would cost me alot and I might just be buying a lot of trouble filled days ahead.

    I have tried that Keydigital RGB to VGA transcoder but I was not happy with the picture quality loss over the VGA picture. I haven't heard of this Xcard, if it is reputed to give a better picture than the transcoder I might look into it. It seems very cheap at $100. Do you know of a good place to get this Xcard over the net?


    Conor
     
  7. ChrisAllenFiz

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    I think the xcard is the next generation of the hollywood+ stand alone dvd decoder card for your pc. Should be available from www.dabs.com or www.ebuyer.com for around 60 quid if I remember correctly. Only problem you might have is that you might not be able to have the pc desktop and the dvd output down the same cable, or there might be a pass through cable required. Anyone know about this?

    Chris
     
  8. jonny m

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    www.komplett.co.uk £90 delivered from Oslo

    Can you clarify the problem abit more.

    it only happens in vga input?, it happens at 60htz,72htz,75,85,100Htz etc, in both 16bit+24bit colour

    it happens with all dvd software players

    its fine when you watch it on a monitor.

    it dosn't happen with svid, composite, component progressive or interlaced.


    What were you using here?? And as the pj is still displaying VGA did it happen here??

    And you've checked with Toshiba\dealer and they have no fix for this?

    Regards
    j
     
  9. Comer

    Comer
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    Yes to all of the above

    The transcoder converts the VGA signat to progressive component so I eas using the PC with the component input of the projector. The jerky motion was gone but there was too much loss of picture quality, in fact it wasn't a whole lot better than using the svideo input.

    Toshiba UK didn't have have a clue.

    Another member of this with the same pj noticed the same thing so it's just the projector.


    Conor
     
  10. jonny m

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    Blimy Comer

    You must be well pi**ed off, looks like the circuit that samples and prepares the image isn't doing it at a fast enough speed, I have the same problem with my mpact2 card, if I run it at 800x600x24 bit colour every 5 mins the screen tears, I can only run it at 720x480x18 bit colour no less, I have just discovered!

    As a last resort have you tried running it at 720x480 resolution? Or does it even stutter on 640x480? What do you run it at now?

    Also whats the transcoder like at 720x480, would it make any difference as it dosn't have to downsample?

    Other than that it's Xcard time! You will be even happier to hear that the xcard will only output dvd's to a max of 480p AND will do pal dvd's in that resolution as well.

    Man you have had a whole lot of trouble with this!

    j
     
  11. Comer

    Comer
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    Thanks for your time on this Jonny, but this was an expensive and very time consuming batle that I could never have won. The problem is in the projector. I have changed every (and I mean every) component in the computer and I even borrowed a friends computer to see if it was a combination of parts causing the problem, but no, it's definately in the projector.

    I still really enjoy watching movies on the pj and in fact rarely notice it if the movie is good enough.

    For $100 I think that I'll try the xcard and then maybe live with it for a few years until my next upgrade.



    Regards


    Conor
     
  12. Kramer

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    Conor,

    You have mail!
     
  13. jonny m

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    Comer
    I've recently gone through the joys of HTPC myself, I never went as far as you did though, I did try my gf3 which microstuttered, with 2 sound cards, 3 versions of windvd, 2 of powerdvd (which teared) and one version of theatretek which according to the tech support I was the 1st person ever that it didn't work at all, I mean not even a picture! and I tried all the above with win98se and win xp.

    I also tried my 709 which gave a good picture nice and smooth but I was convinced the pj could do more, then I bought a tosh 510 which was great on ntsc prog scan but pal interlaced gave me eye ache (!) if such a thing exists.

    Then I bought a 4 year old mpact2 agp card which is a all in one solution, I did think it strange at the time that I needed to hack the registry to get 24 bit colour and other resolutions other than 720x480 when playing dvd's, but after wondering why it would tear sometimes at 800x600x24bit, the penny dropped and I realised the mpact2 was designed for 720x480x18bit, and the reason I needed to hack the registry was that I was pushing it above its design spec! yes 4 years ago 800x600x24 bit was just too much!

    But for the 1st time I now have a pal + ntsc progressive solution, you need to reboot between regions and Im not going to setup any remotes for it but its the best yet. It has a spdif and stereo/svid/composite out as well on the card, and the guy I bought it from had it's filters removed so the quality from it I have to say is pretty damm good.

    For £70 I'm quite happy, this will bide me over until the phillips 963 gets released, then I can get even better panning thanks to the faradja (whats it called) dcdi chip, with 24 bit colour! and a nice remote.

    I never went down the full htpc route as I just cant stand ati cards\drivers!

    Hopefully the 963 with full progressive scan for pal+ntsc will be out sometime this autumn, if not then I may have to reconsider, maybe an xcard as it has a remote with it! and lovely 24 bit colour hmmmm...

    :D
     
  14. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I have an MPact2 mobo solution that never glitched on me - good picture quality and sound and very stable. Ran it at 800 x 600 and 24bit on my Davis DLS8 with no problems...

    The Radeon I have now gives a better picture though.. :)

    Gary.
     
  15. jonny m

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    Gary
    hmmmm...when I run 800x600x24 it dosnt tear in all the time, but if the scene gets patricularly busy it will, Im a real stickler for smooth pans and movement and notice it far more than the loss of colour I suspect. Is the Mpact2 agp card and mb using the exactly same gear?

    I wonder if I could o/c my agp bus by upping my cpu speed, maybe another 10% speed bump is all I would need for 24 bit colour - now you have me thinking - I wonder if the mb version which came out about 1.5 years? after the agp version runs at a faster speed??

    In what way? you are running at the same resolution, colour whats the difference?? And is it really worth it?

    j
     
  16. Gary Lightfoot

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    Hi John,

    The mobo has the MPact 2 sound and graphics built in, and that's probably why it's more stable. Not really upgradable though...

    I heard about the Radeon being excellent, especialy with the new ATI player, so I waited until all the issues seemd resolved, then I bought an ECS K7S5A mobo, Duron 950 and a cheap Supergrace Radeon VE (less than £40 for the 64meg DVI model).

    The picture quality is a lot better, but as I'm not using the MPact player, I don't know if it's down to the player (ATI) or the hardware, but it's a definate improvement. It's also a cheap upgrade, as the mobo and Duron will cost less than £100, and 'powered by' Radeons are under £30.

    I never had any issues withe 3D Fusion mobo, and it played everything straight off. No glitches or anything. I did occasionaly notice some 'noise' in the picture, but I had to look for it to see it, and nobody else noticed it, so it wasn't really a problem.

    I've still got it, along with a Pentium III 450 cpu, so it'll probably make a good starter system for someone. Like now, I only used 128 meg of ram, but this board can run on 64meg, so is probably a cheap option.. I may build another pc out of it or sell it on, don't know really what to do with it...

    Gary.
     
  17. jonny m

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    Gary,
    Been experimenting all night with my mpact2 card and it's definately meant (I think) to run at the stock speed, at 720x480x18 its so silky smooth its amazing, at any other resolution ie 800x600x24 its not basically, I can see tearing all over the place, I don't think others will but its quite plain to me, I am discovering I'm quite fussy with my image.

    I think at 720x480 it dosn't have to do any scaling routine on the image. It dosn't glitch at 800x600, but it isnt right either, and at 1024 its very visible.

    Very happy now its running very smoothly indeed. :D

    j
     
  18. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    My pj is an old Davis DLS8 which can only do 800x600, so I used YXY to scale the image to 800 x 450. Ran fine at that res and at 24 bit too.

    I could even run it to 856 x 480 (IIRC) and that was fine too, so I guess the mobo was able to do some things the pci/agp card couldn't.

    Digital Connection are selling the 3D Fusion mobo for just $99 now, so with postage ($30 IIRC) that would be just over £150 including customs charges. Good value for a very stable dvd playback platform, and a little cheaper than a new mobo/cpu/Radeon and sound card.

    Gary.
     
  19. jonny m

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    Hi Gary
    Why didn't you just use the standard 800x600x24, can the davis do an amporphic squeeze on vga input? Isn't 800x600 @16:9 800x450 anyway? :confused:

    Did you have to setup a custom resolution via the .inf files for that one?

    Surely for $130 /1.532 (current exchange rate)*1.225 (uk customs+vat(do I have this right?))=£103.9 which for the quality of playback, ease of use and stability for a dvd playback is amazing, just add slow cpu\ram\4gb hard disk and your set.

    The agp card I have is mark grants old one that has had its low pass filters removed to improve the image and other modifications with heatsinks and fans added also, i dont think I'll go for the mb as apparently its very difficult to remove the filters on that one and without the filters the image is improved considerably and as far as I remember it was advertised as the same spec as the agp card.

    I did see some noise once when close to the image I could see very faint diagonal lines moving across the image is that what you meant??

    j
     
  20. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi John,

    "Why didn't you just use the standard 800x600x24, can the davis do an amporphic squeeze on vga input? Isn't 800x600 @16:9 800x450 anyway? "

    I read over at AVSForum that using YXY to scale the image meant that you didn't lose any resolution - I believe the E-Center 16:9 was actualy halving the resolution then scaling it back up which resulted in a loss of resolution.

    The 856 x 480 resolution meant that I was overscanning the image either side, so I was losing 28pixels each side. I couldn't notice any real difference to be honest - just a slightly bigger picture.

    "Surely for $130 /1.532 (current exchange rate)*1.225 (uk customs+vat(do I have this right?))=£103.9"

    Hmm - I don't know where I got my figure from?:confused: my only excuse is that it was late and I was tired.... :)

    You must be getting an excellent picture from Marks old card - I can remember reading his post over at AVS. He did mention that he was getting a 3D Fusion mobo, and he was going to mod that too. I e-mailed later, and he said that he managed to do the mod, but the image was too noisy.

    The faint diagonal lines you see sound like the ones I saw. Hardly noticeable unless you really look for them. Maybe Marks moded board meant they weren't being suppressed anymore.

    I'd be inclined to save my money and stick with your card rather than go the 3D Fusion route. If you do decide to upgrade anytime soon, I'd reccommend the Radeon straight away, though I don't know if you'll see any improvement in sharpness over Marks card. Just the improvement of the ATI video filters.

    Gary.
     
  21. jonny m

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    Hi Gary,
    After reading the posts on avsforum and all the hubbub it created I almost feel like I've bought a collectors item ! :D

    Watched it lastnight the faint diagonal lines were gone.

    Yeh the Radeon seems the only upgrade from the mpact2, esp as ati bought the mpact3 chip, I wonder if the incorporated any of its design in the radeon, now all they need is the system stability of the mpact2 and an included spdif\stereo output.

    I have to say I'm loath to go down the ati route, just don't trust there drivers\software much. Not sure why though its just a strange feeling.....

    What do you mean???

    Cheers
    j
     
  22. Gary Lightfoot

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    The ATI filters which render the video image in the ATI software DVD player.

    The ATI DVD player gives the best image quality of all software players except maybe Theater Tec, which uses the ATI filters anyway.

    The trouble is, the ATI player rarely gives DD/DTS output, and can cause other problems too, so it's often used in conjuction with Zoom Player and another DVD players audio filter - I use WinDVD's audio with ATI video and I now have the best picture/sound combination I've ever had.

    I can't really see how to improve it any. I'm happy with it as it is, but sometimes I think I might try a filter over the lens, or try a grey screen - just out of curiosity, not because I feel I need to..

    Just can't stop tweeking sometimes... :)

    Gary.
     
  23. jonny m

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    Gary
    yeh thats the Ravisent codec's isn't it? I tried those on my gf3 ti 200 with theatretek and the thing wouldn't read my dvd drive at all:( , apparently I have the honor of being the 1st person with whom theatretek\tech support couldn't get TT working at all:D

    Is this difficult to setup? Would theatretek do this out of the box?

    I'm running with both, they are both pretty good, the grey screen which is just a large piece of smelly tarpaulin being sold under the guise of dalite home cinema contrast vision, currently using picture hooks in the gromets to stretch it on the wall to get a flat image, will build a frame eventually. I have to say that so far it hasn't noticeably increased my contrast at the moment but my room is still quite light, the filter hoya fl-d definitely helps it look more cinematic. The HCCV screen is good it reflects alot of the light, more than a sheet of plain paper and the colours are preserved also. Although I think a white screen would ruin my contrast but I've been projecting onto ether a light blue wall or a magnolia one so I can't really tell the difference. The HCCV vinyl screen can be imported for about £200 from avscience.

    Its about £100 for the screen and £100 postage if your interested!

    j
     
  24. Gary Lightfoot

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    I think TT should give you a great picture with DD/DTS out of the box, and there was a patch not long ago, but as your the only person who's unlucky enough for it not to work at all, I guess it's moot point. :)

    Have you tried Zoom player? It's very versatile, and if you can get it going with your dvd drive, you should be able to use the TT filters if they're able to be registered by Zoom.

    Did you try another dvd drive in your GF machine?

    What pj are you running - Is it LCD? My black levels are pretty good, so I'm not sure I really need a grey screen (maybe for improved contrast perhaps), and the filter mod will be very simple, so when I fancy tinkering, I may get a filter and see what results it gives.

    What's the HCCV screen exactly? Is it a screen maeterial or something siliar that does the job like blackout cloth?

    Gary.
     
  25. jonny m

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    Ive not tried Zoom and I only tried one dvd drive in my pc, it was wierd as windvd 3 versions, powerdvd 2 versions, wmp even when using the Ravisent decoders etc all played fine.

    My pj is lcd and I think the HCCV does make quite a difference, its screen material that would normally come with an aluminium frame, you would assemble the frame put it on your wall and attatch the screen, ala a fixed screen.

    The screen + frame costs almost £500, the screen on its own can be had for £200. I bought this 3rd hand from the ads on this board. Instead of using a pull down screen or a large piece of mdf this is the other method!

    Da*m the mpact2!! Why oh why oh why will it only output 60htz in its 720x480x18 my pj HATES that refresh rate, 72\75 lockon no problem, at 800x600x60htz the screen loses far left\right of the screen, and at 720x480x60 the whole thing looks bizzarre, strange it seemed to work last night, oh f*c8, arrgh!!:mad: :mad:

    xcard here I come :D

    The HCCV actually means high contrast cinema vision I now remember.

    j
     
  26. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    x-Card or Radeon do you think? :)

    Sounds like you're having a bad HTPC day - good excuse for an upgrade....

    Thanks for the info on the screen stuff - I initialy thought of buying some Stewart screen material, until I found out the cost!

    If I do ever decide to upgrade my screen, it'll have to be something that'll make a huge difference in picture quality, and at a good price. At £28, my blackout screen is a real bargain, and I really need to see a big value improvement for me to upgrade just yet..

    I might look into a filter though - cheep and easy to install. I can't see that it'll make a lot of difference though - I'll have to do a search and see what others did with their Davis pjs.

    Cheers.

    Gary.
     
  27. jonny m

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    Hi Gary
    Thanks for your words of sympathy..:)

    Yes it was a pretty bad htpc night really, the pj just seemed to go mad I couldnt get it to adjust at all to that resolution, this is so bizzarre it seemed fine the night before...and now with 720x480@60 htz it wont allow me to store any modifications to the signal its just keeps thinking its getting a 640x480 signal so things get a bit pear shaped.

    If I could I would go out and buy a good pal progessive player tomorrow, if the phillips 963 could be had for £300-ish I would be down there like a flash. The htpc is a good idea but as my pj is only 800x600 when I tried component on it it was almost identical to the pc, so I dont really get the benefit of being able to push high resolutions with a htpc.

    What type of pj is yours? With my pj the hoya fl-d really helps it look far more cinematic, cuts down screen door and makes the image look more red, for £20 I would definately recommend.

    They are a real bugger to try to fit to your lens cap though, none of them seem to be designed for projectors just camera's, and the stated size of them seems to bear no relation to their actual size of threads, maybe someone can elaborate to why when you measure it at say 50mm and order the filter for that its won't fit, usually too big.

    Most guys either glue it on the lens of glue it to a piece of metal that they can then stick on top of the lens.

    If phillips dont release the 963 with pal progressive I will have to go down the xcard route or maybe a radeon upgrade using my main pc, my htpc was chucked together using old bits, so its only a c400\bx mb\128m ram,10gb hd. I dont think a radeon would be too happy in that configuration.

    Will try the htpc wrestle again tonight...may need sympathy/congrats later on :p

    regards

    j
     
  28. Gary Lightfoot

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    Hi Jonny,

    Thanks for the Hoya info - I did wonder about the size as the lens of my Davis DLS8 (DLP) is quite large, so I'll have to have a good look round my local camera shop and see what they do..

    My pj only does 800 x 600 too, but I'm very happy with the image quality. I'll try the filter mod to see what difference it makes. Apparently blacking out the clear segment of the colour wheel makes a difference, especialy for black level and contrast, so I may someday try it, but it means taking it apart to do that.

    It's a simple mod according to those that have done it, but with everything working well at the moment, I'm less inclined to tempt fate by taking it apart. Maybe when it needs a new lamp... :)

    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, but I was thinking that you could get a cheapo 3rd party Radeon, and try it in your pc anyway - just to see what the image quality is like, and if you have better luck with the pj syncing. You may have a jerky picture, but it should be good enough as a test. I've heard that some people are getting smooth playback with a Celeron 400, but 500 is normaly the minimum. How fast can your mobo go?

    Good luck...

    Gary.
     
  29. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Jonny,

    Thanks for the Hoya info - I did wonder about the size as the lens of my Davis DLS8 (DLP) is quite large, so I'll have to have a good look round my local camera shop and see what they do..

    My pj only does 800 x 600 too, but I'm very happy with the image quality. I'll try the filter mod to see what difference it makes. Apparently blacking out the clear segment of the colour wheel makes a difference, especialy for black level and contrast, so I may someday try it, but it means taking it apart to do that.

    It's a simple mod according to those that have done it, but with everything working well at the moment, I'm less inclined to tempt fate by taking it apart. Maybe when it needs a new lamp... :)

    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, but I was thinking that you could get a cheapo 3rd party Radeon, and try it in your pc anyway - just to see what the image quality is like, and if you have better luck with the pj syncing. You may have a jerky picture, but it should be good enough as a test. I've heard that some people are getting smooth playback with a Celeron 400, but 500 is normaly the minimum. How fast can your mobo go?

    Good luck...

    Gary.
     
  30. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Hi Gary,
    Well...tonight went very well indeed and I'm delighted once again with the setup although it still isnt perfect yet, I'm grinning ear to ear as we speak..

    the mistake I did last night was that I a: changed the monitor type to a sony and b: re-installed the mpact2 software with a new screen type of 720x480 in its inf file, the big problem was that I didnt reboot after doing this so my system was in a total mess, the pj was fine it was just displaying a screwed up picture that the mpact2 was displaying!

    tonight when I turned it on, it started working fine and I couldnt believe it! I've even got it running at 800x600x24 bits@60htz now to try to reduce the tearing and it works quite well apart from some tearing during lots of movement, the bizzarre thing is that in the 720x480x72 htz mode there appears to be more tearing than when it was at 60htz! the theory goes that you should match the rate of the movie x3 to remove tearing, not it seems with the mpact2

    also with 720x480x18 bit@72 htz and it was kinda wierd, the picture didnt quite sit right with the projector almost as if it can't lock onto the timing properly, the proper image was displayed, it almost looked like parts of the screen were uneven in size anyway...

    dont think I could give up the extra 24bit colour over 18 bit now even if i could totally get rid of the tearing at 18 bit, the strange thing is that its totally unnessesary to see tearing at all, if they would only update the ramdac frame buffer with the completed frame instead of drawing the screen before the image is finalised in the mpact2 card then you would never see any tearing, its just like vertical sync for opengl\direct3d you flip over to display the completed image thats in the buffer, you dont draw one that's half way though!

    On to your dpl, I dont know if the filter is needed for yours as you will have better blacks than mine and no screendoor, although colouring in your white segment is meant to be quite good.

    you know every now and then when you manage to improve things and you get into another level in how your setup looks and you sit back to watch a movie and your jaw is on the floor, well tonight I had another of those. brilliant.

    my mobo can go up to piii800 but its getting pretty hard to pick up compatible cpus for these things these days.

    cheers and thanks for the crossed fingers worked a treat :D :D :D

    j
     

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