Using same hifi speakers for hifi amp and AV amp.

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Pasanda, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    I've read a recent thread which seems to be trying to do the same thing as me, here: AV receiver and stereo amp into same speakers

    The response at the time was to use a speaker switch. I think i have a far simpler option, but want to run it past the experts before i fry something nice.

    My set up is in my sig: Hifi speakers are MA Gold GX300. My amp is the Cambridge Azure 851N. The Av amp is an RX V673 and my 5.1 AV speakers are Kef eggs and a wharfedale sub.

    I don't particular want the hifi on when watching films. The amplification on the 673 is adequate for our tastes. Also the 673 doesn't have a pre-out, so using the hifi amp with the av amp doesn't appear to be on the table. But i would love to use the GX300 as front channels for AV, instead of my Kef eggs.

    The back of the GX300's looks like this.
    [​IMG]

    So my question is, as i'm not bi-amping, the HF and LF are connected. Are there not simply 2 sets of speakers posts for both L and R channels of the GX300's? If so, why can't i just add additional speaker cable runs from my AV amp front LR channels to the other posts on these speakers?

    I won't ever be running both sources simultaneously, and i would need to reconfigure the AV amp to recognise full range front speakers.

    Additionally, for a Brucey bonus, it would free up the 2 Kef eggs currently running front L&R, that i can then use for the last 2 channels.

    It seems so simple, i must be missing something. Can anyone advise please? Thanks in advance.
     
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  2. dante01

    dante01
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    You'd need an amplifier switch as opposed to a speaker switch:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/DynaVox-speaker-switcher-black-AMP-S/dp/B0047N09K2

    You cannot use the binding posts on the speakers in the manner you suggest becaus the current from one amp would travel across the bridging plates between the terminals to the other pair of terminals and then travel down the speaker wire to your other amp. BANG!
     
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  3. mushii

    mushii
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    I would suggest that this is not a great idea with the risk of trashing your amp, speakers and AVR as you will be back feeding current directly into the circuits of the device that is off. Additionally risking having both devices accidentally powered at the same time and destroying pretty much everything connected.
     
  4. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    I see. Thanks for explaining it so i can understand it. It would be my risk that both amps might be built to handle that back-fed current. A risk, which having considered what you'd said, i'm not prepared to take.
    That switch looks good and has decent reviews, but it's hellishly expensive for a passive switch.

    But at least i have a way through.
     
  5. dante01

    dante01
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    Cheaper than having to replace your AV receiver, the stereo integrated amp and the speakers :)
     
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  6. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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  7. dante01

    dante01
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  8. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
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  9. Will I Aint

    Will I Aint
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    The same question appeared on another thread plus i put a link in if you fancy making a DIY solution.
    Speaker Switcher Question
     
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  10. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    Thanks yes, i saw the DIY solution while scanning around yesterday (but not the thread). That speaker-housing he re-purposed looks really good as a switch.

    I don't have much time for projects like that unfortunately. So it seems the £50 Nobsound box on amazon might be the way to go for me. Although i did briefly consider upgrading my 7 year old V673 for something with a pre-out instead. That seems a touch too far (but it's still tickling the back of my brain...

    EDIT, the main reason for steering away from the AV front speaker pre-out into the 851A, is that the TV/AV is on every night, and mostly for my wife who isn't the biggest appreciater of surround audio. I'd have to have the 851 amp on all the time for the fronts to work at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  11. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    I use my i hi speakers for front left and right. I run optical cables into my yamaha surround amp and use jack outputs to my big 100 watt rotel amp input for left and right and then speaker cable from the rotel amp to front left and front right speakers. The other speakers are wired from the surround. The rotel amp is much better than any surround amp i have heard and adds body to the whole effect if you get the balance right on volume. I was quite shocked at how much better the old rotel compared to the much younger expensive yamaha surround. I m not sure how new amps work these days in terms of jack inputs and outputs, it my not possible to do this on new equipment, i am not sure.
     
  12. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    If you're using jacks, it seems like the jack outputs would be taking all channels to the Rotel. So your front L&R are playing all 6 channels, which isn't great for separation and kind of negates the point of a 5.1 setup, and might explain the appearance of a fuller sound. Unless you can specifically program the amp to only output specific channels, as you often can with pre-amp outputs on AV amps.

    You are effectively putting out the centre, front left, rear left and sub to the left main speaker, and centre, front right, rear right and sub to the right main speaker.

    I'm not an expert in this and i don't know your AV amp, but it sound like it to me.
     
  13. dante01

    dante01
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    If using front left and right pre outs to connect the external 2 channel amplifier then the external amp can be used to power just the front left and right speakers while the AV receiver deals with powring the other speakers connected directly to the AV receiver. The only time multichannel audio would be downmixed would be if specifically selecting a mode that does this such as a STEREO mode.

    Speakers powered by an external amp connected to the AV receiver using the AV receiver's pre outs can be used in conjunction with speakers connected directly to the AV receiver. being powered by the AV receiver's integral amplification.

    Bass management is also still in effect and an LFE channel and any frequencies at and below associated crossovers will still be redirected to the sub as opposed to being sent to the external amp.
     
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  14. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    You made me think then how I did it as i had trouble identifying the connection i used. There seems to be a 'Pre Out Centre' for all channels with the exception of the centre. I have connected the jacks to the left and right fronts here and then to the input on the amplifier. It is meant to connect to preamps according to the book but i do not fully understand it. It has always worked though and you can hear the separation on 5.1. / dolby digital. I don't use the presence speakers.
     
  15. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    Yes my connections for the jacks front left and right seem to be on the pre amp section or 'Pre Out Centre'
     
  16. dante01

    dante01
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    What model Yamaha AV receiver is it?
     
  17. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    Sorry, i used the term pre-amp, when i meant pre-out.

    I think what confused me is you saying the connection is through "jacks", which tend to refer to the 3.5mm or 6.35mm jack plugs. I'm only familiar with those carrying the full L&R signals, and not split for surround sound. If you're referring to RCA's, then that would have made sense as potentially being a pre-out, which can do exactly what you're after.

    If it is a pre-out, then my amp doesn't have a pre-out.

    What amp is it?
     
  18. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    It is an old amp. DSP-ax757se. I use the word jacks, but i guess the term is phono outputs i think. I just spotted that it also has a connection for the centre as well but i am only using front left and right. I have put a link in below which i hope works. The front left and right phono connections are two to the right of the subwoofer which can be seen highlighted. Very complicated surround for me, i never use half of th features. It was highly rated with richer years ago but on its own it struggled with my hi fi speakers so hence the link to my rotel

    Yamaha DSP-AX757SE Owner's Manual (Page 15 of 97)
     
  19. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    Sorry i mean 2 to the left of the subwoofer connection on the diagram.
     
  20. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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  21. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    Ok. just out of interest, i've gone off at a tangent and am popping into Richer in an hour to pick up the Denon AVR-x3500H. It has an array of pre-outs, and i've managed to convince myself that having the 851A powered on more often isn't so bad after all.

    They have a deal on the Denon at £479. Seems like a lot of amp for the money.

    Anyone wanna buy an RX-v673 in perfect condition?
     
  22. dante01

    dante01
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    Yep, that receiver is equipped with a full set of pre outs. There's no issue associated with just using the front left and right pre out while simultaneously using the receiver's own inygral amplification to drive the other speakers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  23. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    Excellent, i could not remember how i worked it out, i think purely by putting plus in and listening. Is it worth having presence speakers connected do you think. I have rear surround centre and the two fronts but never tried presence. I am not even sure where they should be located ?
     
  24. dante01

    dante01
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    Presence speakers can add additional dimension to the audio, very similar to what you'd get in association with Atmos and or DTS:X. Yamaha were doing heights before Dolby came up with Pro LOgic IIz or Atmos and did it rather well. I'd be more inclined to stick with the MOVIE modes as opposed to the MUSIC option such as the ROXY THEATRE though. THe music options are a bit gimmicky.

    The front presence speakers would be located above your front left and right speakers or maybe slightly further apart than your front speakers are:

    snapshot001.jpg

    You'd not be able to have both the back centtre surround as well as a pair of front presence speakers though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  25. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    OK cool. I can see where they are supposed to be. Think I will give it a go. Cheers for your advice, much appreciated :)
     
  26. Rambles

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  27. nickj1000

    nickj1000
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    Interestingly i have read up the reviews on the yamaha, very high ratings. In fairness it is very flexible but for sure too many gimmicks. Not a patch on a stand alone good amp like the rotel though in stereo, i was quite shocked how it could not deal well with lower end but very well with the top end. I think was very lucky to have the pre amp outputs on it as it saved the day. Thanks again. Cheers
     
  28. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    Was that aimed at my moaning about having the amp on? If it was, then thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, the amp defaults to standby when powered on. With the AV and ARC, i'm used to one device firing up everything when i turn it on. So pressing the fire tv home button will turn on the av amp and the TV. It would have been convenient if that would have also fired up the 851A.

    Picked up the new Denon last night. Spent a few hours setting it up with audyssey. Not connected the GX300's yet as the whole lot (AV & Hifi) will need bringing together in a AV stand in another part of the room. So far, the X3000H isn't too bad. From an audio perspective not a whole heap better than the v673. Musically, probably a touch worse. But we'll see what the GX300's will do in the AV mix.
     
  29. Khazul

    Khazul
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    You said Cambridge Azure 851N - did you mean that (network streamer) or the 851A amp?

    If the latter - then all you need is cable from pre-out of an AVR to an input of the amp - if I remember right the 851A can be configured to enable HT bypass on a selected input - ie just act as a power amp for an AV system.

    Have a look thjough the manual on HT bypass or setup.
     
  30. Pasanda

    Pasanda
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    Hi khazul. Yes sorry i meant the 851a. The problem was my yamaha amp didnt have any pre-out. I bought a diff amp on fri so issue is likely sorted.
     

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