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Using a filter with the Panny AE700

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Sigismund, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    I've been reading a few threads over on AVS and it seems they're getting excellent results using different filters with the the AE700 - contrast ratios of around 2300:1 are being bandied about... with excellent colour renditioning to boot! Well, I've read that for accurate colour the Natural setting is best, although contrast ratios are low. Cinema 1 with a little tweaking gives better results it seems, and that's what I'd been using... until now!

    I've had a Hoya filter sitting around doing nothing so I thought I'd try using that - it's a bit of a fiddle because it doesn't fit the lens properly and a bit of tape is required. I fitted it and set up the PJ using the Video setting, then went about tweaking things using Avia and DVE. I can't believe the difference! The image is so much more lifelike as well as appearing more smooth with great colour and much improved contrast levels.

    I'm sure there are more suitable filters, but I cannot believe just how easy it was to set up everything using the Hoya filter - I normally tweak colour settings endlessly, and end up feeling things are never quite as I'd like them. This time everything seems excellent right off the bat!
     
  2. explicitlyrics

    explicitlyrics
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    Where did you get the filter from? Or where could I get a filter from? ;)
     
  3. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    It came with my first projector purchase - a Panny AE100. But I'm pretty sure they're easy to come by... give me a minute and I'll go check exactly what it's called :)

    It's a Hoya FL-Day filter :)
     
  4. mojomanic

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  5. OneEyedStuart

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    I got my AE700 Hoya FLD filter here

    http://www.2filter.com/prices/products/Hoya98.html

    Still cheaper than in this country and I was never charged customs import, lucky there I guess.

    The one you have for the 100 will not fit without some attachment as the 100 uses a 55mm thread and the 700 uses a 77mm.

    It has improved my contrast, I cannot say by what measurable amount though. Just looks better to my eye.

    Regards
    Keith Hurst
     
  6. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Just adding a filter alone will not improve contrast, as it reduces the lumens equally throughtout the range from black to white. The reason a filter is used is because the UHP lamp does not produce a white light - the red green and blue are produced in different amounts, usualy with red being most deficient, so the raw lamp will appear green/blue. In order for the colour to appear natural, you have to balance the colours equaly, so this means reducing the green and blue at the white end of the scale (contrast), and this reduces the overall contrast ratio because you haven't reduced the black level. This is done within the projectors menu or service menu.

    If you want to get more contrast, the only way is to boost the white level - but to do that will mean a green/blue image due to the lack of red. (Manufacturers figures are given with an unbalanced white level and no white or black level set, which is why they are typically 50% higher than reality).

    So, you opticaly boost the red by adding a red filter (which cuts green, or a yellow filter which cuts blue. A combination will work better still), and that means you can increase the green and blue contrast back up to match the red. The overall image will appear dimmer because the filter also reduces light output, but you've gained a little back by upping the green and blue components. So, overall your black level and white level are reduced, but you've increased the contrast ratio.

    If you add the filter without increasing the individual green and/or blue contrast settings, the contrast ratio will not have changed, but the black and white level will.

    Gary.
     
  7. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    Hi Gary - The only image I've ever been satisfied with since acquiring the AE700 is by using the Natural - good colours, but low contrast level - Cinema 1 - tweaked to give almost as good colour, but better contrast - and Cinema 2 - tweaked again to give a slightly dodgy image, as far as colours go, but often looking quite pleasing overall.

    What the filter seems to have done is allowed the use of Video mode, which has always looked far too vivid and out in practically every every settings departmartment. I'm only using Avia/DVE, but colour accuracy has never been so good :) My, layman's, guide as to whether the image has "improved" is to go back over my most familiar DVDs - Gladiator, The Fifth Element, Kill Bill 2, Spiderman 2 - and see how they look. I've used these DVDs so many times for reference/demo duties that I'm thoroughly bored by them :boring: but with my filter and new settings I'm suddenly feeling that wow factor again - especially when using full lamp mode. :D

    As an aside, I'm also happy that the small amount of ellusive vertical banding is reduced and the image has taken on a much more smooth and "filmic" look :)

    By nature I'm an endless tweaker, but now I feel like I just want to leave things alone... although there is still a part of me that wonders just how much more impressed I could be if a more suitable filter/more professional setting up was used!

    I think, for now at least, the most I will do is buy a Hoya filter that actully fits the PJ properly :)

    Oh, by the way - it was your "Basic Projector Calibration" that started me tinkering again with the PJ so a big :thumbsup: to you mate ;)

    Cheers,

    Mark
     
  8. monopole

    monopole
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    Here's a link to a posting I made on another thread after reading through all the of the AE700 tweak thread on avsforum:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1496969#post1496969

    this includes the settings that are now regarded as an excellent starting point for using the B&W 81EF filter. The 81EF filter is also known as a KR6 in Europe (there are good reports of the Heliopan KR6).

    Some filter links:

    77mm B&W KR6, £41 + VAT (6-8 weeks delivery quoted though!)
    http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/bwfilters.htm#KR

    77mm Heliopan KR6, £36.42 (inc VAT)
    http://www.teamworkphoto.co.uk/heliopan.html#8

    There are also details of the very cheap Cokin filters in the thread in the link shown above.
     
  9. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Mark,

    It's quite possible that one of the AE700 settings is allowing a high colour temp by letting the green and blue run high which is also giving a higher contrast ratio but at the expense of colour accuracy, so when you add the filter you're doing some colour correction, but keeping the higher CR as well. Along with an improved black level, the filter has added improvements all round. :)

    Glad the calibration thread is helping. I think I got into tweaking in a similar way, after Jeff showed me how to set white and black levels a few years ago. It's just carried on from there, so I know what you mean.

    Paul,

    I also found the 81C to be very useful with the H77, and it's quite possible the 81EF will be better still - the 81C combined with the FL-Day was a great combination for allowing greater contrast, but the two filters made the image a little too dim, even for me. :)

    I might pick up the 81EF and see how it fairs on my pj out of curiosity. I got my 77m Hoya HMC FL-Day from the US, £26:

    http://www.2filter.com/welcometo.html

    With the current exchange rate, it might be cheaper picking up a filter from them.

    Coking filters are excellent value, but more reflective than the Hoya HMC. How much you'll actually notice that when it's on the pj I wouldn't like to say but I thinjk they reduce the lumens from the pj more than the HMC equivalent. That might be a good thing if you actually want to do that, and with a new lamp, I find one of the first things I want to do is to dim it down to cinema levels (around 12ft lamberts reflected) as soon as possible.

    Gary.
     
  10. CooperUK

    CooperUK
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    Hi Sigismund,

    I've got the Hoya 77mm filter for my AE700 too - what settings are you using for your PJ?

    I'm pretty happy with image quality, but am always willing to try and tweak some more life-like-ness out of it!

    TTFN
     
  11. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    Hi Coop :)

    I'm using Video mode using these settings... for the moment :)

    Contrast........... -1
    Brightness......... -1
    Colour............... -6
    Tinit.................. +1
    Sharpness........... 0
    Colour Temp........ 0
    Dynamic Iris......... On

    Advanced Menu

    Gamma High, Mid and Low......... 0
    Contrast Red......... 0
    Contrast Green...... +5
    Contrast Blue........ +3
    Brightness Red....... -3
    Brightness Green.... -2
    Brightness Blue...... -2

    I have the PJ linked to a Panny DV97S and I've just noticed that using RGB mode on the DVD player gives better blacks, so more tweaking will be going on soon :)

    Hope that helps!
     
  12. monopole

    monopole
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    Cheers Gary, I just ordered the 77mm B&W 81EF from your link - should come in at around £35 (I had to email them to find out the international delivery cost - $12.50). I haven't found a B&W filter in stock for anywhere near that in the UK (even if I do get charged import duty).

    http://www.2filter.com/prices/products/bwwarmcool.html

    Projector should be here this week... It's Christmas for grownups :)
     
  13. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    That was how much the postage for my filter was - I initialy chose $4 but I think that was via Trans-Atlantic swimmer. The $12 option is a tad faster which is why they emailed me to ask. :)

    Gary.
     
  14. CooperUK

    CooperUK
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    Thanks for the settings Sigs; I'm on holiday this week so much tweaking will get done - cheers!

    I'll post any other settings I discover that look good.
     
  15. CooperUK

    CooperUK
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    Well, I watched Hellboy this morning and the new settings from Sigismund have definitely improved things. Looking forward to the next set of tweaks mate...

    Cheers!
     
  16. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    :smashin:

    I've got the R1 3 discer Hellboy with bust :) and from memory the image on that DVD is close to reference quality. I'm just wondering whether to buy one of these B+W 81F filters - I've read they're good for a contrast ratio of around 2300:1 with accurate (D65) colour temperature :thumbsup: And to think Panasonic sell the AE700 quoting just 2000:1 :eek:
     
  17. CooperUK

    CooperUK
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    If you do get one of the filters, let me know how it shapes up.

    Would you use the filter in addition to the Hoya, or instead of?

    BTW, my 'Hellboy' is the 2-Disc R3 version - so pretty much the same AFAIK in terms of image quality; sure looked damn fine to me! What a great film too.
     

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