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Using a filter on the sanyo z3

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by sainthalo, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    Has anyone determined the best filter to get?
    Sounds like a hoya fl-d filter is worth trying - anyone know what size or has tried it with good results?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. Gary Lightfoot

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  3. ROne

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    Right here is a gif of my SMARTIII calibration at it's best. It's not bad overall but that blue at the bottom I can't tweak out with the menus.

    So I may be looking at a filter to do this, does anyone have any suggestions -I need to crop that blue .... So we looking for a filter to leave red alone. Maybe CC30 - and I think I would need to let yellow/orange through to suppress blue?

    Any ideas?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Gary Lightfoot

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    If you want to improve the contrast ratio of your pj, gradualy increase the individual contrast adjustments for the red green and blue, and see what the colour balance is like - you'll probably see blue being very high, then green and then red being the lowest.

    There are two ways to find where the colours max out - use the lightmeter with each colour cap in turn (or the Opticone), and then adjust the colours up one at a time until you see no more gain on the meter. Move the adjuster up and down around the point where no more gain can be made to determine where the colour maxes out and note down the adjuster postion. Do this at 100ire.

    The other way is to play a test pattern that has each RGB colour in bars (like in Displaymate) so that you can see where the colour crush occurs.

    Red will probably be your limiting colour for calibrating, and you will need to find a filter that will cut the green and blue opticaly. An 81A, 81B, 81C or 81EF may be good choices depending on how much the green and blue need cutting. An FL-Day will cut mostly green, red cuts green and blue, and a yellow filter will cut blue.

    Here's a useful link:

    http://wwwuk.kodak.com/US/en/motion/students/handbook/filtration4.jhtml

    This may not reduce the blue hump entirely, but it may help reduce it in relation to the others.

    You have the OpticOne hardware now don't you? If so, you may find which filter works by getting hold of the Lee Filters filter swatch, then go through the filters by placing them in front of the lens so that the O1 sensor can see the changes in the RGBs. The ideal filter will balance the colours perfectly opticaly. Then do your normal colour calibration at 80ire and 30ire but ensure you don't increase any of the RGB contrasts above their maximums so you keep a flat grey scale above 80ire.

    HTH

    Gary.
     
  5. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    errm, im new around here with very basic equipment (not even an avia) so im not able to what has been suggested. it looks like there is no verdict on appropriate filter for the Z3. good to see ROne is working on it and Gary can help with his knowledge (you dont have the z3 i think do you Gary - but you seem to be the resident settings maestro!).

    by the way Rone - please do keep posting your settings - sounds like our z3's are virtually identical because i calibrated mine (using xp media center wizard for projectors with video overlay) and it turned out even after a few goes that your settings were always similar but slightly (5-10%) better.

    regards
     
  6. ROne

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    Thanks for that Gary, I don't have the opticONE unfotunately - it's not written off - just other projects have come up ..

    I have already reached the maximum contrast, like you said - red clips the earliest and the others have been pulled into line.

    My only improvement I think I can make is to take this blue "black" away at the bottom end - I think I will need a yellow to do this. My logic is to filter the colour that can't be altered by the projector's menu settings and the others can be manipulated in parallel as they don't have the same limitation as the blue, which is leaking the most near black.]

    SaintHalo, interesting - I have just started messing with MCE, always been a Theatertek advocat, but MCE uses the sames filters as TT so it's not much of a leap - although I swear the decoders in MCE produce a better picture than TT! Have you tried VMR9?
     
  7. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    With a filter it's possible to improve it further - if you don't bring the green and blue contrast down to match red, the pj wil be putting out more light, although it will be too green/blue. You will have a higher contrast ratio but uncalibrated. Bringing the green and blue down reduces light output and the CR. If you add the filter to colour correct, you dim the image equaly at both ends but you keep the increased CR.

    That's why filters can give more contrast over an unfiltered pj. Using an fl-day, I was able to add 300:1 CR to the HT1000 and 400:1 to the H77.

    Gary.
     
  8. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    afaik mce does not have any dvd decoders vbut does have eg avi playback. the picture is awesome. i tried powerdvd and windvd decoders for dvd playback and stuck to powerdvd. im running a fanless ati 9600 sapphire btw. i checked just now and it seems VMR9 is not an option in MCE - it is mandatory as i saw on the microsoft newsgroups - i havent seen any settings to alter this? i tried theatertek, powerdvd and windvd and vlc as well as mce using win or power dvd decoders. MCE won hands down (powerdvd decoder) and produced the best pictures - only snag is the lack of fwding/rwding when playing back xvid/divx avi's on mce so i use wmp for that.

    Gary, so is it worth investing in a FL-D? they are quite cheap i recall and ae100 owners loved them i remember. If no-one else has tried it on a z3 i may give it a go.
     
  9. ROne

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    Assuming we are talking about MCE2005, it comes with nvidia decoders, which are the same decoders as TT.

    You can access the option by minimising the mce, window and accessing the small nvidia task bar option and selecting the type of de-interlacing, overlay, vmr and Dvxa accelaration.
     
  10. Gary Lightfoot

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    Only if you currently have a noticeably green/blue cast to the image that needs correcting. Idealy you need to be able to calibrate the colours to D65 using SMART, Colorfacts or other similar calibration equipment. It's not as straightforward as just adding a filter, though you may still prefer the image the filter gives over the standard image.

    Gary.
     
  11. Comer

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    I have been waiting for this thread for some time. I'm sure that like many Z3 owners I do not have any way of calibrating other than with Avia or the like and as such I have benifited greatly from ROnes great work.

    Please keep us posted :smashin:

    Conor
     
  12. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    as far as i can tell, the image is perfect either by s-video from my cable tuner or especially via the dvi-hdmi adapter. there seems to be no colour casting but i am no expert - to my naked eyes so to speak the colour and pixel quality is fantastic already. this is probably why noone has managed to figure out a filter as it is not obviously required.

    Rone are you sure your mce2005 comes with nvidia dvd decoder or do you have an nvidia card which came with the decoder? the reason mce does not contain any dvd decoder s/w as i understand it was part of the court settlement in ms anti-trust suit so i would be surprised if it is now included? i learned this when i could not figure out why my system was freezing everytime i inserted a dvd!!!
     
  13. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    cheers i think im going to give the nvidia decoders a try- ppl seem to think they are the best decoders and it certainly seems like they have more functionality than powerdvd decoders. i didnt try them as i have an ati card but i geuss that is flawed logic!
     
  14. ROne

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    Here is what Steve Smallcombe (SMART creater) has to say about my chart (above):

    "I looked at your spreadsheet.

    The reason SMART is recommending changes to red and green bias changes, but not blue, is that in the IRE 20 to 30 area these colors are a bit high. You can try lowering the blue bias to correct the IRE 0 situation as an experiment, but chances as that the color balance at IRE 0 is determined strictly by leakage through the LCD panels and will not be affected by the bias settings. To experiment, using the blue filter and an IRE 0 or black window, try lowering the blue bias setting. If the reading goes down, GREAT, but I would be surprised. Chances are that you will need a CC 30 or 40 red filter to correct the color balance at IRE 0, and use the bias setting to tweak the area around IRE 20.

    I must say that it is nice to see the Z3 tracking so nicely, definitely a real improvement over the Z2.

    Steve"


    And he's correct, you can't adjust the blue in the IRE0, we will need to get a filter. Best sources anyone?
     
  15. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I think Hoya HMC are the best, as they have little reflective problems and transmit more light than others. You can get them from the USA:

    http://www.2filter.com/welcometo.html

    Delivery is $12 - I bought my 77mm FL-Day from them. Total was around £26.

    Or try a UK based on-line shop or Jessops for instance.

    Cokin gel filters are cheaper, but of less quality. Whether you'll see any difference in the image I wouldn't like to say, but close up you can see the reflective differences and that may have a negative impact on CR.

    Gary.
     
  16. ROne

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    Thanks gary - I have been led to believe you can't screw anything onto the z3, it's not something I've looked at. So I guess I will need to tape it to the lens hood - which is going to look a bit naff.

    I do have some film gels here - to convert lamps backwards and forwards which I might experiment with.
     
  17. Gary Lightfoot

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    I managed to get hold of a large swatch of filters from Lee Filters. I emailed them and told them what I needed it for and they sent it to me. It's got most types of filter on it, and you can try them in front of the pj and see which one works the best, and then buy a proper filter for permanent fixing.

    My pj doesn't have a thread either, but you can possibly get a larger filter, and hang it on the front (use it backwards), or use a thick elastic band to hold it onto the lens - it'll have to be about the same diameter for it to work though.

    Gary.
     
  18. sainthalo

    sainthalo
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    hi just had a look at the z3 lens, it has a thin lip around it which would be ripe for a couple of tiny lengths of velcro to the filter :)
     
  19. ROne

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    Had a little mess last night with several lee gels ...

    They were all obtuse colours which leaned too much in one direction rather than being filters per se cutting down a measured amount of light.

    What I did discover though is the orange/yellow may be the best direction. It definately cuts down on the blue at IRE 0 ...

    However beyond this I see some marginal improvements - I've got to say my set up seems good enough and I'm not inclined to keep on tweaking especially when HD clips are my next logical upgrades and offer a much more dramatic improvement without the faff of dimishing returns.
     
  20. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    It can certainly be a time consuming process when you don't have the ideal filter to choose and have to go by trial and error. Something that could give you an instant read-out for it's effect would cut down the time as well.

    Gary.
     
  21. sainthalo

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    Rone, any chance you could post up your latest settings for the z3 and if you do get a filter please do let us know :)

    thanks :)
     
  22. ROne

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    Sure, I will put them in themain tweaks thread, they are pretty much as per 100hr settings with a fine tweak to R and B offset.
     
  23. sainthalo

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    Just to complete this thread, it has been discovered over on the avsforums that using a CC20R filter with the following settings gives the best image so far.

    There are now further settings to be deployed with the use of CC20R and CC10Y filters. These can be found in ROne's Tweak thread:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163330
     

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