USA - racism

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And I say again, irrelevant. You can't justify the keepers of law and order indiscriminately murdering civilians based solely on their in built biases. That speaks to an enabling culture and an obvious lack of eduction and training.

There is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will justify this behaviour. All that is happening now is that through a sad confluence of events, more and more people are beginning to realise this.

As I said in my previous post:

Its not irrelevant at all. I suppose its irrelevant that rioters and looters have killed at 1 77 year old policeman, 1 security guard and 1 shopkeeper. Guess what all black.
 
The issue at hand is very simple and not complex at all. 300 years of slavery, 100 years of Jim Crow. What's complicated about that?

The solution on the other hand will require a massive change of Police culture. But at least now there is public pressure being applied and a political will to at least be seen to be doing something.
We can't deal with all of society's ills, but if at least those in charge of protecting us are protecting ALL of us then we have a chance.

So Chauvin murdered George Floyd because... slavery? Looters shot dead David Dorn because Jim Crow? Police culture needs to change. Ok, how? Is it a departmental issue, a government issue, a social issue? Does the black community have any responsibility in this?

You mention those things to refute my point that this is a complex issue, but you are actually reinforcing it.
 
Thanks for the stats, at least you have sourced them which is what I asked for. But I say again, still irrelevant. You can't justify the keepers of law and order indiscriminately murdering civilians based solely on their in built biases. That speaks to an enabling culture and an obvious lack of eduction and training. There is no justification for extra-judicial killing. You do agree with that don't you. If you do then what are you arguing about? If you don't then.......

All that is happening now is that through a sad confluence of events, more and more people are beginning to realise this.

As I said in my previous post:

I’m not justifying another police murder, especially not George’s, I’m simply saying blacks aren’t murdered disproportionately when you consider all the facts
 
So Chauvin murdered George Floyd because... slavery? Looters shot dead David Dorn because Jim Crow? Police culture needs to change. Ok, how? Is it a departmental issue, a government issue, a social issue? Does the black community have any responsibility in this?

You mention those things to refute my point that this is a complex issue, but you are actually reinforcing it.
Nope afraid not. The conditions are complex but well understood by those who bother to look into it. A lot of white Americans have zero incentive to do so. This particular symptom of the complex situation is not complicated at all. Police are performing extra-judicial killings on black men on a much higher rate per population than any other race. Those are the words used on the stats page you kindly linked to.
I’m not justifying another police murder, especially not George’s, I’m simply saying blacks aren’t murdered disproportionately when you consider all the facts
So what you are saying is that white officers are killing black disproportionately but it is justified. You do see the problem with that statement don't you? Think about it for a second. The only relevant facts here are that the police are acting as judge, jury and executioner. How is that in any way justified?
 
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Nope afraid not. The conditions are complex but well understood by those who bother to look into it. A lot of white Americans have zero incentive to do so. This particular symptom of the complex situation is not complicated at all. Police are performing extra-judicial killings on black men on a much higher rate per population than any other race. Those are the words used on the stats page you kindly linked to.

Why are they though? Isn't that a factor worth 'bothering to look into'?

And if its so clear cut, why do so many black American thinkers and social commentators disagree with your assessment?
 
Why are they though? Isn't that a factor worth 'bothering to look into'?

And if its so clear cut, why do so many black American thinkers and social commentators disagree with your assessment?
Because this is just another "disrespecting the flag" diversion. You don't think the militia's in Iraq were trying to kill the US Marines? They actually had guns and were prepared to use them. How many unarmed black men had guns? Silly question I know. But wait they could have right? So non black hostile combatants get the benefit of the doubt but black civilians in America don't?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing justifies extra-judicial killing by a para-military police force. The fact that you are even trying to justify this is frightening.
 
Nope afraid not. The conditions are complex but well understood by those who bother to look into it. A lot of white Americans have zero incentive to do so. This particular symptom of the complex situation is not complicated at all. Police are performing extra-judicial killings on black men on a much higher rate per population than any other race. Those are the words used on the stats page you kindly linked to.

So what you are saying is that white officers are killing black disproportionately but it is justified. You do see the problem with that statement don't you? Think about it for a second. The only relevant facts here are that the police are acting as judge, jury and executioner. How is that in any way justified?

Carry a gun, confront a police officer in the USA likely to get shot, If as a % more blacks than whites who are confronted are carrying a gun than there is part of the reason more blacks are shot than whites.
 
Nope afraid not. The conditions are complex but well understood by those who bother to look into it. A lot of white Americans have zero incentive to do so. This particular symptom of the complex situation is not complicated at all. Police are performing extra-judicial killings on black men on a much higher rate per population than any other race. Those are the words used on the stats page you kindly linked to.

So what you are saying is that white officers are killing black disproportionately but it is justified. You do see the problem with that statement don't you? Think about it for a second. The only relevant facts here are that the police are acting as judge, jury and executioner. How is that in any way justified?

As I’ve shown blacks aren’t killed disproportionately when you consider crime rates. They are killed less often than whites when arrested for violent crimes.

Black officers are actually more likely to shoot a black suspect.
A

simply going by population is stupid, obviously 25 year old black men are more likely to be killed by police compared to 75 year old Korean women

Go by arrest rates and try again....
 
Carry a gun, confront a police officer in the USA likely to get shot, If as a % more blacks than whites who are confronted are carrying a gun than there is part of the reason more blacks are shot than whites.
Are you deliberately trying to confuse matters or are you genuinely not seeing how what you are saying is totally irrelevant? The problem is entrenched attitudes and cultural acceptance of black being the enemy. Even some black Police officers suffer from it. Ask yourself why so many white people are genuinely upset with George Floyd's killing. One unarmed black guy being killed is a concern. 10+ is a trend.
As I’ve shown blacks aren’t killed disproportionately when you consider crime rates. They are killed less often than whites when arrested for violent crimes.

Black officers are actually more likely to shoot a black suspect.
A

simply going by population is stupid, obviously 25 year old black men are more likely to be killed by police compared to 75 year old Korean women

Go by arrest rates and try again....
We are not talking about gang bangers or criminals in the act of committing a crime. The numbers of unarmed black people being killed IS disproportionate to the population size. So what you are left with is justifying the police murdering black people because they potentially could be dangerous. Again, this is different to the Policy that trained Marines enforced in a War Zone.

.....
waiting for someone to say, "but it's like a war zone"
 
As I’ve shown blacks aren’t killed disproportionately when you consider crime rates. They are killed less often than whites when arrested for violent crimes.

Black officers are actually more likely to shoot a black suspect.
A

simply going by population is stupid, obviously 25 year old black men are more likely to be killed by police compared to 75 year old Korean women

Go by arrest rates and try again....
I'm very interested in where you're getting all your stats from please.
 
Look!
A is Black people kill black people
B is Black people can be criminals.

So A+B = C

C is Police justified to kill unarmed black people.

So how about

A is White people kill white people
B is White people can be criminals.

So A+B = C

C is Police justified to kill unarmed white people.

Yes/No?
 
Because this is just another "disrespecting the flag" diversion. You don't think the militia's in Iraq were trying to kill the US Marines? They actually had guns and were prepared to use them. How many unarmed black men had guns? Silly question I know.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing justifies extra-judicial killing by a para-military police force. The fact that you are even trying to justify this is frightening.

That fact that you could infer something so horrendous based on nothing I have actually said is frightening. I've never justified police murder. I simply put it over to you to wonder why police killings of black suspects might be abnormally high compared to other races. Is it because cops enjoy killing black people (which is psychopathic), or is it because there is a disproportionate number of black people involved in those confrontations, which increases the likelihood of black suspects crossing paths with thug cops? Or could it be a combination of both? I think there's evidence for both, hence why I say its complicated.

You have made up your mind though. US police are racist, period, discussion over.
 
Are you deliberately trying to confuse matters or are you genuinely not seeing how what you are saying is totally irrelevant? The problem is entrenched attitudes and cultural acceptance of black being the enemy. Even some black Police officers suffer from it. Ask yourself why so many white people are genuinely upset with George Floyd's killing. One unarmed black guy being killed is a concern. 10+ is a trend.

We are not talking about gang bangers or criminals in the act of committing a crime. The numbers of unarmed black people being killed IS disproportionate to the population size. So what you are left with is justifying the police murdering black people because they potentially could be dangerous. Again, this is different to the Policy that trained Marines enforced in a War Zone.

.....
waiting for someone to say, "but it's like a war zone"

9 blacks and 19 whites a year isn’t a very big sample size.

I won’t deny there are racist police officers, probably racist against south East Asians as well, but we don’t see the same killings because they commit a tiny amount of crime compared to blacks
 
Interesting point made by someone on the news just now. George Floyd wasn't shot and killed. He was killed after being restrained through a 'choke hold' although pinning someone to the ground with the weight of your knee for 8 mins until the perp stops breathing is excessive. Most black men in the UK who are killed in custody or in prison are killed after being restrained. That's why the killing witnessed in the USA has resonated so much with black people over here. The same goes for Australia.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know this Thread is about another country), but isn't there an acceptance of institutional racism in the UK amongst various organisations? (the Met, for example)

Is there a similar mindset in America or not?

Having said that, we don't seem to acknowledge Police brutality in this country, but they do?

And why is the orange idiot so useless? He seems utterly clueless, out of his depth and part of the problem rather than the solution.
 
Are you deliberately trying to confuse matters or are you genuinely not seeing how what you are saying is totally irrelevant? The problem is entrenched attitudes and cultural acceptance of black being the enemy. Even some black Police officers suffer from it. Ask yourself why so many white people are genuinely upset with George Floyd's killing. One unarmed black guy being killed is a concern. 10+ is a trend.

We are not talking about gang bangers or criminals in the act of committing a crime. The numbers of unarmed black people being killed IS disproportionate to the population size. So what you are left with is justifying the police murdering black people because they potentially could be dangerous. Again, this is different to the Policy that trained Marines enforced in a War Zone.

.....
waiting for someone to say, "but it's like a war zone"

What I'm saying is not irrelevant only to you. The facts speak for themselves. Yes its terrible he died, what about the at least 3 other people who have been killed by the rioters/looters all black? Are their deaths any less terrible?

You get confronted by someone with a gun whether they're white, black, yellow, green, pink, blue or orange with horns coming out their head your first reaction is to defend yourself.

Please my brother Father/Uncles and Brother where trying to win hearts and minds long before the US Marines.
 
That fact that you could infer something so horrendous based on nothing I have actually said is frightening. I've never justified police murder. I simply put it over to you to wonder why police killings of black suspects might be abnormally high compared to other races. Is it because cops enjoy killing black people (which is psychopathic), or is it because there is a disproportionate number of black people involved in those confrontations, which increases the likelihood of black suspects crossing paths with thug cops? Or could it be a combination of both? I think there's evidence for both, hence why I say its complicated.

You have made up your mind though. US police are racist, period, discussion over.
There's definitely a disproportionate number of black people involved in encounters with the police. I imagine the proportionality is due to police prejudice as it appears to be in the UK.

Stop and search
 
You sound angry, Captain.

What worries me is that I can see something similar happening here, all it needs is a spark.
I'm in my mid fifties had it almost all my life. I'm well past being angry. I expend my energy in more constructive ways. This is just a mental exercise whilst I wait for the sun to go down so I can watch Robocop on BD.

I wonder why I decided to watch that tonight? :D
 
People are losing the plot over this now.

Anthony Joshua

 
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