Upscaling on Component

piyush1982

Standard Member
Ok - i am fairly sure this question must have been answered somewhere in the millions of pages of forums here, but its doing my head in now and I have had to resort to posting a new thread on it.

I want a get a new dvd player, cheap one for now because in some time I'd like to upgrade to a HD DVD or Blu-Ray player.

My Acer LCD doesn't have HDMI ports but does have DVI. SO, my question to you is - suppose I buy the Philips DVP3005 which is selling for £35 at my local Sainsbury's - and use the component output to connect to my display - will this give me upscaled quality pictures?

I have read several times that component output is virtually as highdef as HDMI/DVI. So then, why do all 'upscaling' dvd players sell as HDMI ones and there are none (or hardly any) that say 'upscaling via component'. I have also read somewhere that this is because of some sort of copyright protection that disallows upscaling via component? Is that true??

If i get the philips 3005 - will i get the 720p pic quality that my tv will support? or will i need to get a HDMI upscaling player and then use a HDMI/DVI cable to connect to my tv (which has a DVI port)?

Also, if it helps, i have my Wii connected to display via component - picture quality is unbelievable compared to the standard connectors that come with Wii.

Is this post getting confusing?!

Any help very much appreciated so that i can stop spending my life browsing forums and use that time to do some critically necessary laundry instead.
 

btsam

Novice Member
howdy!

it's true, upscaling via component versus hdmi can yield very similar/same/better results, you won't really know until you try it for yourself just bear in mind if you might nead a hdmi to dvi lead or converter. dvi would be my preference as the signal stays digital all the way from the disc to the tv

i can't remember if the philips is an upscaler although if it isn't it'll prob do progressive scan if your lucky which then leaves your tv to do the upscaling (all tv's have a scaler built in to them already!)

the theory behind using upscaling dvd players is that (hopefully) they do a better job than you tv!

hope i've been of use

regards

s
 
B

bluebuju

Guest
I'm in a similar situation.

I have a Sony KLV-26HG2 which only has a component input. Is there a PAL DVD player on the market that can upscale via component?

My local Sony Centre can't offer DVD players capable of upscalling via anything but hdmi or dvi.

I have a bad feeling that component upscalers were around in 2004 but have since been replaced bu HDMI.:(
 

evans

Novice Member
Ok - i am fairly sure this question must have been answered somewhere in the millions of pages of forums here, but its doing my head in now and I have had to resort to posting a new thread on it.

I want a get a new dvd player, cheap one for now because in some time I'd like to upgrade to a HD DVD or Blu-Ray player.

My Acer LCD doesn't have HDMI ports but does have DVI. SO, my question to you is - suppose I buy the Philips DVP3005 which is selling for £35 at my local Sainsbury's - and use the component output to connect to my display - will this give me upscaled quality pictures?

I have read several times that component output is virtually as highdef as HDMI/DVI. So then, why do all 'upscaling' dvd players sell as HDMI ones and there are none (or hardly any) that say 'upscaling via component'. I have also read somewhere that this is because of some sort of copyright protection that disallows upscaling via component? Is that true??

If i get the philips 3005 - will i get the 720p pic quality that my tv will support? or will i need to get a HDMI upscaling player and then use a HDMI/DVI cable to connect to my tv (which has a DVI port)?

Also, if it helps, i have my Wii connected to display via component - picture quality is unbelievable compared to the standard connectors that come with Wii.

Is this post getting confusing?!

Any help very much appreciated so that i can stop spending my life browsing forums and use that time to do some critically necessary laundry instead.
you can still get upscaled images from your Acer using a DVI/ to HDMI cable and making sure it works before you buy. However I checked the phillips you want to buy and this only has the progressive scan feature and not any upscaling features. This means if you buy this player then your ACER will do the upscaling to the TVs native resolution which will be 768 horizontal lines normally for the latest LCD's. To use the philips your tv must have comonent in (3 inputs) or Scart. You see the modern LCDS have scalers in them to fill in the info as DVDs only have 480 lines NTSC and 540 or more lines PAL so the image needs to be scaled to play on your tv.

To buy a DVD player with upscaling chip in it you will need between 70 to 100 pounds minimum. There the DVD chip inside the player does the upscaling to 1080 lines, 720 lines progessive not your TV. Sometimes the TV has a better scaler than your DVD player!
 

jon1

Novice Member
I'm in a similar situation.

I have a Sony KLV-26HG2 which only has a component input. Is there a PAL DVD player on the market that can upscale via component?

My local Sony Centre can't offer DVD players capable of upscalling via anything but hdmi or dvi.

I have a bad feeling that component upscalers were around in 2004 but have since been replaced bu HDMI.:(
cambridge audio DVD-89 richer sounds


john
 

sparticus

Novice Member
There is virtually no mainstream player that will upscale over an analogue connection.
There are one or two that can be hacked to do so. The Snazzio I have will output just about any resolution over component. The helios can and things like Momitsu, Kiss and a few others.
You almost definately wont be able to convert a digital DVI or HDMI connection to output an analogue picture without a a DA conversion. DVI can be DVI-I, DVI-A or DVI-D and in my experience no one ever tells you what kind of DVI is fitted to their machine, which is a hopless case if you need to convert to component as I do.
Most DVI is now DVI-I which has no analogue connection.
 

evans

Novice Member
sparticus

Is there any Hdmi to component adaptor? I read somewhere there is but it is expensive.
 

Timbo21

Well-known Member
Upscaling is generally a load of rubbish.

Only very expensive players, at least over £600, are really worth looking at.

Even then, unless you have a native 720p, or 1080p res screen, which most flat panel TV's don't (quite often something like 1366 X 768) it, again, is pretty worthless. ie The whole point of upscaling is to improve things by bypassing the tv's scaler. If you can't do this, as in the case of 768p screens, then your best bet is to get a good player that will just output 480/576 over component, scart, or HDMI.


T.
 

jon1

Novice Member
There is virtually no mainstream player that will upscale over an analogue connection.
There are one or two that can be hacked to do so. The Snazzio I have will output just about any resolution over component. The Helios can and things like Momitsu, Kiss and a few others.
You almost definitely wont be able to convert a digital DVI or HDMI connection to output an analogue picture without a a DA conversion. DVI can be DVI-I, DVI-A or DVI-D and in my experience no one ever tells you what kind of DVI is fitted to their machine, which is a hopeless case if you need to convert to component as I do.
Most DVI is now DVI-I which has no analogue connection.
HTML:
As in my previous post DVD 89 .witch i use component to my h78 upscales no problem;)
 

tezer

Novice Member
also have atec tv.Have a samsung hd950 dvd player used on the dvi port and component in my opinion not alot of difference between them.one advantage is the samsung comes with a hdmi to dvi lead.the best picture i get is with the rgb off an xbox 360 or better known as the vga.But the tv needed calibrating,was shocked at first at the poor quality but worth it once caliberated
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
I really would not bother with this, there are much more important things to worry about. I have two players that can upscale over component and don't use the feature on either. Just leave it to the panel and have one scaling operation.
 

sparticus

Novice Member
You might be right. But, I spend as much time playing with equipment as I do watching it. When I set my player to upscale certain resolutions I can see lines on the resolution test of DVE that I have never seen before on any display or player of mine. Its the single biggest change I have ever seen. I do agree though that there are other aspects of the picture that are as important as resolution. No one wants to watch a picture that stutters but has good resolution for instance.
Playing with stuff is all part of the learning process and for me, part of the hobby.
 

TrevorS

Novice Member
I'm in a similar situation.

I have a Sony KLV-26HG2 which only has a component input. Is there a PAL DVD player on the market that can upscale via component?

My local Sony Centre can't offer DVD players capable of upscalling via anything but hdmi or dvi.

I have a bad feeling that component upscalers were around in 2004 but have since been replaced bu HDMI.:(
The studios decided a number of years back that they didn't want anything copyrighted to get output on analog at any resolution greater than 480p. Didn't matter if it was native greater than 480p or just upscaled to greater than 480p. So although there were initially a handful of players that could do that, the legal departments were talking and that feature got the official axe.

HDMI and DVI-D are both acceptable as long as HDCP is included in the interface. Since HDMI comes standard with HDCP, that's no problem. However, since not all DVI-D included HDCP, those that didn't were also left in the cold. (HDCP = High Definition Copy Protection)

Most (if not all) player and TV digital interfaces are either HDMI or DVI-D, I'm only aware of computer monitor interfaces that supported DVI-A or DVI-I (but perhaps others as well), both of which are RGB analog compatible. Neither HDMI nor DVI-D are compatible with analog RGB and so no simple "adapter" can be used with them to get RGB analog signals. Instead, it's necessary to purchase a converter(transcoder) that electronically translates the digital signals into RGB analog. Such a converter must also be HDCP compatible.

Hope this information is helpful :).

PS. The following text is taken from this link:
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html

DataPro said:
"WHAT ARE THE DVI FORMATS ?
There are three types of DVI connections: DVI-Digital, DVI-Analog, and DVI-Integrated (Digital & Analog)

DVI-D - True Digital Video

DVI-D cables are used for direct digital connections between source video (namely, video cards) and digital LCD (or rare CRT) monitors. This provides a faster, higher-quality image than with analog, due to the nature of the digital format. All video cards initially produce a digital video signal, which is converted into analog at the VGA output. The analog signal travels to the monitor and is re-converted back into a digital signal. DVI-D eliminates the analog conversion process and improves the connection between source and display.

DVI-A - High-Res Analog

DVI-A cables are used to carry a DVI signal to an analog display, such as a CRT monitor or an HDTV. Although some signal quality is lost from the digital to analog conversion, it still transmits a higher quality picture than standard VGA.

DVI-I - The Best of Both Worlds

DVI-I cables are integrated cables which are capable of transmitting either a digital-to-digital signal or an analog-to-analog signal. This makes it a more versatile cable, being usable in either digital or analog situations.

Like any other format, DVI digital and analog formats are non-interchangeable. This means that a DVI-D cable will not work on an analog system, nor a DVI-A on a digital system. To connect an analog source to a digital display, you'll need a VGA to DVI-D electronic convertor; to connect a digital output to an analog monitor, you'll need to use a DVI-D to VGA convertor.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
You might be right. But, I spend as much time playing with equipment as I do watching it. When I set my player to upscale certain resolutions I can see lines on the resolution test of DVE that I have never seen before on any display or player of mine. Its the single biggest change I have ever seen. I do agree though that there are other aspects of the picture that are as important as resolution. No one wants to watch a picture that stutters but has good resolution for instance.
Playing with stuff is all part of the learning process and for me, part of the hobby.
I feel very confident in saying I play with these 'resolutions things' more than most here. I have dedicated test rig comparing players and video processors and this 'upscaling' is well down the list of things to worry about. Currently I have about 20 players 'on test' or in use. The resolution think is what I call fake resolution, or a microscopist would call 'useless magnification'. I think you need to go back and compare things in isolation because what you are describing does not fit with scaling or scaling artifacts. I think you are much more like to be mixing this up with 'other processing artifacts' that are occuring elsewhere. All IMHO ;)

To the OP, Yes you have the right idea, there really is little difference between analogue and digital signals other than the domain that they are in. What differences there are are small and down to engineering with digital easier to do on a budget. Both are still 'component' and both come from the same source on the DVD disc which obviously doesn't change, which holds the same amount of information regardsless. You can therefore have the same basic information being transmitted to the display, whether it is analogue or digital, scaler or unscaled. The bottom line is you don't get something for nothing.
 
B

bluebuju

Guest
HTML:
As in my previous post DVD 89 .witch i use component to my h78 upscales no problem;)
Does this require a hack to get it to upscale? It seems a good player anyway, but if it could upsale over the component that would solve my problem.
 

sparticus

Novice Member
I dont want to hijack this thread but if its ok with the OP I would like to ask Nic a question.

Nic I am an engineer but video is only a hobby. When I say I can see higher resolution with the Snazio than my Denon 2900, I can see lots of finer lines than fewer thicker lines. Hope that makes sense. I agree with most of your post but, if you could explain what you think I am seeing if it isnt a genuine increase in resolution, I might learn something. Im not hung up on this, it would just be good if you could share some of your knowledge.

The Cambridge I suspect, like all main stream players would require a hack to upscale over an analogue connection.

Best regards
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
If you mean more lines on the HF test discs, then this is not a scaling thing but a bandwidth issue but is is difficult to tell from the description. This is often down to the quality of the engineering used in analogue or digital stages and is captured well in the 'secrets' test on players.

Would you get these with upscaling a VHS source via a video processor?, it is exactly the same senario only with a different starting resolution. I often think of this as a good way of thinking about it.

I am also 'only' an Engineer but now have managed to integrate 'imaging' into the day job, just nothing to do with AV!! But still some fairly cool stuff ;)
 

sparticus

Novice Member
Nice one Nic, thanks.

Just to explain my post on upscaling over component. The problem arises with encrypted dvds. The oppo for instance will upscale home made dvds over component but not most commercial discs. There are still one or two players still available which can be hacked to get around the copy protection. I happen to have one of them.

As Nic rightly says though , do you need one. Every player I have owned seems to have some issue I dont like, which is why I keep changing them. Thank god for ebay.
 

cebs_uk

Well-known Member
Hi,

I got a samsung 850 from richer sounds last year and once you do the region hack hdcp is disabled and it then upscales via component and hdmi.

I haven't seen proper hd yet so can't comment on the quality but the image looks good at 720p on my plasma and proj.

Cebs.
 

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