Upgrading stereo speakers but with caveats

grunviz

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Hi there,

I am a Roon user and have a couple of networked listening zones (kitchen, office and lounge). My lounge has to double up between being a 5.1 system for TV and films along with a stereo set-up. I have Monitor audio 5.1 bronze speakers. I use two amps with home theatre functionality connected together. I have a Musical fidelity 3i amp for stereo duties connected to a Denon 3300 for AV. The speaker package is great for home theatre but not great for stereo.

I would like to replace just the front two speakers but any replacement would need to be part of the 5.1 system.

The main caveat is the speaker placement is difficult with one in an alcove close to a window. I had been thinking about the monitor audio silver speakers but I wonder if I should go front firing only.

Does anyone have any speaker suggestions? Budget is tbc but probably up to £1500.

Thanks.
 
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I'm wondering if it would be helpful to post a diagram of your room layout and current speaker positioning. I'm thinking that a speaker upgrade may not necessarily give you the best bang for buck, perhaps that a more accurate and revealing pair of speakers could even make things worse in terms of showing up the problems you're currently experiencing from the alcove and window.

When you're playing movies through the Denon, which you seem happy with, are you using some kind of DSP for 'room correction'? Have you considered adding DSP between your source and Musical Fidelity for stereo duties, such as a MiniDSP or DSP Anti-mode? Or maybe the DSP features that are offered within the Roon software? How about some basic room treatment such as a discrete acoustic panel/trap in the alcove, and dressing the window with suitable material such as a blind or curtain?

As a first step I would feel inclined to temporarily shift the speakers to somewhere in the house where you can set them up properly for a demo to reveal their true potential and the ways in which your feel they're lacking.
 
Thanks @dazad&confused.

I have uploaded a few pictures so you get an idea of the layout. In the first you can see the two front speakers (its a picture from the summer and the sub has since been moved). The second is the sofa, basically opposite the fire place. The last is a overhead (badly) drawn diagram.

There is a DSP involved with the Denon, it comes with Audyssey's MultEQ XT32 which is set-up.

I agree with you regarding the DSP for the stereo set-up although I have not done this yet. This room has only been recently decorated and I am also thinking about adding some acoustic panels, possibly, depending on my other half on the blank wall. I am waiting on a mate who is in the business to give me a little advice (this advice might not be forthcoming). So, I suppose my order of attack could be; finish/treat the room, DSP the room (either via roon or a.n. other) and only then think about speakers.

Right now the front left and right speakers have bungs in the rear port.
 

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The 'alcove' doesn't look as much of a problem as I'd imagined, which was a very asymmetrical room and one of the speakers being very recessed.

I do wonder if some kind of blinds in the window, behind the curtains, could work quite effectively. Bear in mind though that I know virtually nothing about room treatment - it's something I still need to read up on and try out myself.

Something that did occur to me after I posted my first reply is that I'm not sure it's clear how you're getting the Roon source signal to your Musical Fidelity, which I just google and realised it doesn't have a digital input. What streamer / USB DAC are your using? Or is the analogue stereo musical signal coming from the Denon? If the signal is coming from the Denon then I wonder if you're effectively going from a pre-amp to a pre-amp, which, in my own anecdotal experience, can really degrade stereo music due to a degraded signal-to-noise ratio.
 
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The speakers are connected to the musical fidelity amp and when listening to stereo the denon is off. I have a Mytek Liberty DAC fed by a ALLO USBridge network streamer. The Network streamer is connected to a Switch which in turn is connected to a Intel NUC mini PC (over wired ethernet) which has the Roon software on it. It works really well.
 
Okay, so from what we've discussed so far it seems to me that it is the case that the problem is your room, and/or your speakers do not come up to your high standards and maybe don't allow the rest of your kit to shine to its full potential. I am not familiar with your DAC or your USB bridge / network streamer but I would still not imagine they are part of the problem.

One other thing that does occur to me is stereo balance. From your picture I'm imagining that, when you're sat on the sofa watching movies, your experience is being substantially helped by the centre speaker. When you're sat listening to stereo music, I'm thinking that maybe some quite heavy use of the amp's balance dial is coming into play. From my own anecdotal experience again, I feel that a balance control can really help with certain elements of imaging, especially in terms of bringing vocals centre stage, but it really spoils other aspects of the musical experience. If a balance adjustment isn't being used then I think some speakers are much better than others when listened to 'off centre', which seems to be due to certain engineering elements such as the kind of tweeters in use, which affect the way and extent to which the sound is dispersed.

If any of these things may be an issue, is there somewhere in the house where you can set the speakers up properly and sit centre stage to see if they come up to your standards?
 
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Can I ask what it is about the Musical Fidelity / MA Bronze combo that you feel is lacking? Are you having problems with boomy bass or is the balance (too warm, soft / too forward and grating) not to your liking?

Rooms can be a pain! In my current place I'd been through a few different sets of speakers before realising that it was the room that was the largest factor. But positioning is too. Your main L&R speakers do look quite a long distance apart from one another, which could be preventing the stereo image snapping into place properly. I like the suggestion already made about just demonstrating and experimenting with your MF / MA combo in another room to get a sense of how much your perceived problems are with the room or the electronics.

In my own case I wanted to improve stereo sound (I formerly had a Pioneer AVR which was awesome for surround, but not awesome for stereo: it was pretty good but lacking the timing and bass control that was needed). So settled on an Anthem AVR. Its ARC bass management has worked wonders with my room and its extra current has improved the timing. I'm well happy now both in surround and stereo. My room could still do with some treatment though.

Check out the GIK acoustics website. There are some really good videos. When adding treatment to a room, you need to address what the problem is: some treatments temper glary treble, but if bass is actually your problem, then you need treatment that addresses that.
 
I've now had a proper look at your diagram (I was focused on the photo before) and I can see that, contrary to what I wrote in my previous post, you probably are sat quite centre-stage on the sofa. I agree with Hoku - compared to the ideal, your speakers do seem to be quite far apart relative to your sitting distance. This probably isn't helped by being sat very close up to the rear wall (something that many of us have to do), which I think can cause problems with reflections / bass nodes, etc.

I presume that, when you're listening in stereo through the Musical Fidelity, you're not connected to the subwoofer at speaker-level? Adjusting a subwoofer to blend in with the roll-off from main speakers working at their full range can be a real pain to get right but, on the other hand, I think it can also help with room problems, especially if you have scope to move the subwoofer to the optimum position in the room where it can balance things out. This of course requires a sub that has both line-level and speaker-level connections that work together in a dual AV/stereo system, which is something that BK subwoofers do. My own system is set up like this.

If you do decide to try stereo room correction then something to bear in mind is that not all devices such as the MiniDSP allow for the connection of a subwoofer by providing an active crossover for bass management. I mention this because I'm thinking some rooms benefit a lot from letting a subwoofer handle all of the bass frequencies, and placing the sub in the optimum position.

That line of thought makes me wonder about the wisdom of running separate (albeit integrated) stereo and AV systems. I do this myself but I can't help thinking that as more and more things get added to the stereo part (e.g. better DAC, stereo room correction) then perhaps it would have made more practical and economic sense to just take out a small mortgage and splash out thousands of pounds on an AV processor that is also great at stereo.

Having looked again at your pictures I also can't help wondering how happy I would be with my surround speakers so close to the sofa. Which I think would make me wonder about focusing just on getting a stereo or 2.1 system working properly both for music and movies (or maybe three channel). Maybe removing the surrounds would allow for changing the position of the TV and front speakers a little bit?

I should probably shut up now as all this is starting to sound a little unhelpful, and potentially expensive. I do think though that there is sometimes some wisdom in having a complete re-think that includes other alternatives in addition to (or besides) making further adaptations to an existing system.
 
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As has been said earlier, I think the difference in distance to your ears of the left and right speakers is at least part of the problem.

If the MF has a balance control then that will go some way to solving to problem.

A good way to do it is to sit in your usual seat, play a mono tone from the net and get someone to adjust the balance (to the right) so that the mono sound seems to originate in front of you. Not to the left or right.

After that play some songs you love and see if that helped.

If the difference between left and right isn’t as big as it appears, then you might consider adding the sub to the stereo amp too. If it has speaker level connections as well as an LFE input you have the sub setup with the MF entirely separate from the av.

Ps, as an aside I think you’d here a considerable benefit in 5.1 if you raised the rear speakers even a foot higher.


Pps, if you do decide to go for some silvers I’d include the centre speaker as well.

The same tone and timbre is important across the front soundstage.
 
Another obvious test of course, which hasn't been mentioned yet, is to ask how does stereo music from your Denon (with room correction and bass management) compare to stereo music from your Musical Fidelity (with neither)? And how does stereo music from your Denon with room correction switched on compare to stereo music from your Denon with room correction switched on off? And with speakers set to 'small' (subwoofer active) compared to speakers set to 'large' (subwoofer activated and deactivated). The differences between these various combinations should help you figure out the best ways to improve the stereo part of your system, should you want to continue down that route.
 
Have you considered adding DSP between your source and Musical Fidelity for stereo duties, such as a MiniDSP or DSP Anti-mode? Or maybe the DSP features that are offered within the Roon software?

Roon can do DSP from parametric EQ to full convolution based Room correction, but it does not include measuring and auto setup - you need to use external tools for this - calibrated mic + Room EQ Wizard for eg.

I use a couple of Parametric EQs in Roon to apply some basic flattening of my living room's base response, a tiny correction for the slightly recessed mid of my DAC and a correction for slight over-absorption of the high end (by rug, sofa, curtains etc). Then I have another PEQ setup in Roon to apply a 'house-curve' which is basically a small lift in bass and treble to suit personal taste.

This does a really nice job of taming a couple of bass peaks (37Hz and 57 Hz) that are made worse by one of my speaker being too close to a corner while not introducing any of the odd artifacts of full room correction systems that I tend to find detrimental to music (unless sat in exactly the spot it was tuned for).

Try some basic corrective EQ first (have a look on the Roon forums, there are guides on using Roon's DSP for room correction).

Before doing the correction in Roon, I also did a load of measurements to align my sub with my main speakers as I connect my sub to both my AVR sub out and the pre-outs from my HiFi amp (like you, my amp also serve as an front amp for the AVR) as my sub has connection for both. I then measured the room with Room EQ wizard via mains including the sub and made the EQ adjustments in Roon.

All the DSP in Roon is done at very high precision (64 bit floating point) and will usually use the full capabilities of your DAC to maximise the precision of data sent to your DAC after processing, so it will use a 32 bit data path to your DAC if it can as well as being able to do the processing at whatever sample rates you are using - ie it can do this even at 768K/32bit if that it what your DAC supports and the Roon server has enough CPU grunt - I am using an intel NUC with a dual core I7 in it as the server.

Dirac Live (minidsp) will do a more accurate job of Room correction for a specific listening position than Room EQ wizard can even using prepared convolution files for Roon, but I personally never find such corrections good for music unless sat in exactly the right place, also it is limited in terms of sample rate. One of the minidsp products may be useful depending on what DAC you have. Roon can still do the MQA decoding from Tidal itself so you don't have to loose that and it seems to do decent quality sample rate conversion if you have ultra-hires sources (>96K).
 
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Thanks for all the replies- running around a bit this weekend so not had chance to check-in before now. Anyway, some answers...

Can I ask what it is about the Musical Fidelity / MA Bronze combo that you feel is lacking? Are you having problems with boomy bass or is the balance (too warm, soft / too forward and grating) not to your liking?

Lots of things really. Firstly, it doesn't sound bad but just not quite right. Compared to my desktop set-up (where I sit for a good proportion of the week - Adam F5 monitors from a Arcam IrDACII fed by Roon from my PC) its less detailed and a bit muddled.

I presume that, when you're listening in stereo through the Musical Fidelity, you're not connected to the subwoofer at speaker-level?

Correct - my sub is only connected to the AV amp. I am not sure the Bronze fronts need more bass though.

As has been said earlier, I think the difference in distance to your ears of the left and right speakers is at least part of the problem.

Yes, this is probably true, but there is no other configuration for the lounge. We just upgraded TV and I did make a big play for moving the whole set-up behing Sofa 2, but it was rejected by the management!!

I like the suggestion already made about just demonstrating and experimenting with your MF / MA combo in another room to get a sense of how much your perceived problems are with the room or the electronics

I might just move the speakers for test purposes in the same room, just to be sure.

Ps, as an aside I think you’d here a considerable benefit in 5.1 if you raised the rear speakers even a foot higher.

Possibly something to think about in the future!

Roon can do DSP from parametric EQ to full convolution based Room correction, but it does not include measuring and auto setup - you need to use external tools for this - calibrated mic + Room EQ Wizard for eg.

Yes, I have been lurking around this subject for a while. I am tempted to get miniDSP UMIK-1 Omni-Directional USB Measurement Calibrated Microphone, and then follow the instructions in respect of homeaudiofidelity. However I am now tempted to have a go myself with REW. I just need some time and some more intelligence to do it!
 
^ TBH - I think Room EQ Wizard + a calibrated mic is becoming an essential accessory for anyone who really enjoys their music and cares about their sound.

It can be quite a learning ramp to really get to understand for people without a background in live sound or audio engineering, but I do also think it is a very worthwhile learning exercise for anyone who really cares about sound at home.

There are a lot of good guides about how to understand and use it.
 
I have been doing things for science this afternoon, I am selfless like that!!

Anyway there were some comments about positioning of the front speakers, which I totally understand, they are along way apart normally. To solve that, I moved the speakers in, see attached.

Long story short, the stereo seperation is better but I still don't like the sound. It sounds better with electronic music but guitar based music is problematic. There isn't great detail, it sounds muddled. I wonder if I should now try a few other things like attaching the DAC to the Denon, to see if it's the Musical Fidelity that is my problem. I might even move the music server down and attach it directly to the streamer. I am also wondering about getting a pair of old B&W 601s down from the loft to see how they sound, in fact, I might do that next.
 

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I am not sure what your current signal path is, but I would suggest not having the stereo music signal through the AVR.

Ie DAC -> M3i -> Speakers and NOT DAC -> AVR -> M3i -> Speakers if possible.
 
I might even move the music server down and attach it directly to the streamer.

Wouldn't that just be removing the ethernet switch?

I think for the next step I would feel inclined to stick with the Musical Fidelity amp and try feeding the Mytek Liberty DAC with the digital output of a disk transport if you have one available. Then compare that to the USB output of the Intel NUC mini PC straight into the Mytek.
 
Just looked at the photos again.

Trying just for the sake of eliminating issues either moving sofa away from wall or stick a load of pillows behind your head (head being that close to the wall behind can cause all sorts of sound problems).
 
...also the speakers may simply not be your thing.
 
Do those speakers not have spikes, or isolation feet of some kind? If not then I would imagine that's not helping, especially if they're sat on a suspended wooden floor. Sorry if I'm being too obvious but from the photos the speakers look as if they're sat flat on their plinths.
 
Thanks again for the replies, its really helpful.

I am not sure what your current signal path is, but I would suggest not having the stereo music signal through the AVR.

Ie DAC -> M3i -> Speakers and NOT DAC -> AVR -> M3i -> Speakers if possible.

When I play stereo music the Denon is off. the signal path is from the music server, Ethernet, switch, patch box, Ethernet, switch, music stream, DAC, M3i, speakers. I should say this is similar to my speakers on my office desk which sound great.

Wouldn't that just be removing the ethernet switch?

I think for the next step I would feel inclined to stick with the Musical Fidelity amp and try feeding the Mytek Liberty DAC with the digital output of a disk transport if you have one available. Then compare that to the USB output of the Intel NUC mini PC straight into the Mytek.

Yes, a couple of switches actually. I do have an old CD player in the loft i could grab.

Just looked at the photos again.

Trying just for the sake of eliminating issues either moving sofa away from wall or stick a load of pillows behind your head (head being that close to the wall behind can cause all sorts of sound problems).

A good idea, I will try this. In the medium term I might get a few pictures, this has been the main plan but we have not been able to find any to our tastes since redecorating. I might also try an acoustic panel or two but I need to read a bit more about placement.

...also the speakers may simply not be your thing.

Yes, I think this is ultimately the problem, but I want to be sure before chucking money at the problem.

Do those speakers not have spikes, or isolation feet of some kind? If not then I would imagine that's not helping, especially if they're sat on a suspended wooden floor. Sorry if I'm being too obvious but from the photos the speakers look as if they're sat flat on their plinths.

Yes, the speakers have spikes, they are just in the rug in the final picture. However it is a suspended wooden floor.
 
Two things.

1.) Relative to the Photo, move the speakers forward about 3 or 4 feet. Yes, that's not functionally practical, but it serves as a test. If the muddiness and the recessed nature of the sound goes away, then it was a placement problem.

2.) Find a short path connection. That is, make the system as simple as possible, again just as a test. Connect a CD Player or Network Streamer or Turntable to the Musical Fidelity amp, then connect those to the Speakers. You want the simplest uncomplex system possible with the best quality source of sound. Now see if the sound has improved.

Next, you have a Stereo Amp and an AV Amp, they can not share access to the Front Speakers at the same time even if one of the amps is off.

Most use a Beresford Switch to isolate the Amps from each other. This is a speaker switch, but it makes sure only ONE amp can be connected to the speakers at a time. The alternate path of the unused amp is a complete disconnect.

BERESFORD ELECTRONICS - TC-7220-MKII Switch

Now it is unclear to me what you are doing, but I can tell you that you CAN NOT have both amps connected to the speakers even if one of the amps is off. You need complete isolation between the output of the amps.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Thanks for the reply, I will have a go at 1 and 2, possibly tomorrow.

As for the Beresford switch, what is the advantage over the current set-up? Is it, the complete isolation of one amp when the other is in use? Right now both amps have a 'home theatre' mode. So when watching a film both amps are on, but the AV has control, in effect the stereo is a pre-amp although the speakers are connected to it. When in stereo mode you select a separate source (usually my Allo USBridge Ethernet streamer which is connected to the DAC) on the Musical Fidelity and you keep the AV amp off, and like this it works like a normal stereo set-up. I could just disconnect the two amps by removing the phono interconnect cable to create scenario 2. Are you thinking interference might be a problem?
 
You mentioned you like the sound of your office speakers - have you tried them in the same room?
 
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Now it is unclear to me what you are doing, but I can tell you that you CAN NOT have both amps connected to the speakers even if one of the amps is off. You need complete isolation between the output of the amps.

Steve/bluewizard

As for the Beresford switch, what is the advantage over the current set-up? Are you thinking interference might be a problem?

There is no advantage. I don't think Steve has read and understood your posts properly - I believe he must think you have the speaker-level outputs of the two different amplifiers connected directly to the speakers' terminals simultaneously.

The Beresford switch could NOT provide any advantage to your stereo listening: it could only provide a disadvantage by adding an unnecessary component into the chain, which could mess with the signal according to people I've spoken with.

It is plausible that a device such as the Beresford switch could provide an advantage over your current set-up for movie listening, if it is the case that your Musical Fidelity in 'home theatre mode' is just the pre-amp set at unity gain (zero decibels) rather than being a true bypass, as going from one pre-amp circuit into another pre-amp can degrade the signal-to-noise ratio as I understand it. But you've said you're quite happy with the sound from your set-up as it is. If there is any degradation to the signal-to-noise ratio going to the power-amp stage of your Musical Fidelity amp to drive the stereo speakers then I would imagine that's being masked by the fact that your centre speaker (powered directly from the AV amp) is doing most of the work for movie duties.
 
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I'm beginning to think the main problem is indeed that your speakers don't come up to your standards. I think you've set quite a high bar by comparing them to near-field listening to a pair of studio-monitors with an active cross-over to perfectly match the amplification separately to each of the drivers. It would be hard to replicate that level of detail and precision from passive speakers in an imperfect room/placement. I'm imagining a pair of passive speakers in the region of £3000+, probably along with some room treatment as well.

I think you're still right though, to eliminate other potential issues before sending any cash on new speakers.

For the purpose of that elimination process I agree with Steve's point 2) make the system as simple as possible, which is why I suggested connecting a disk transport straight into your DAC.
 
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