Upgrading Power Source and Kef Series Set-Up/ R3 2.1 or R3+ R2C 3.1

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Upgrading Power Source and Kef Series Set-Up/ R3 2.1 or R3+ R2C 3.1​

Any help is greatly appreciated--I am a bit of a rookie in the audiophile world. I'm currently running a pair of Kef R3s and an SVS sb1000 which is being powered by a Yamaha AS-501. I'm using them for 50/50 music (records included running an AT-LP120-USB) and videos. My room is about 9x16 and I am sitting about 7 feet from my speakers, but this listening environment is temporary and I plan to have a more optimal listening space soon + I plan for these speakers to be the beginning of a long-term sound setup which may include surround speakers in the future.

I am debating between upgrading my amp to a Hegel H120 or upgrading my speakers to a bigger system (3.1 for now by adding an R2C for a C), which I believe would require me to get an AVR. I've been looking at Marantz SR5015 and Denon AVR-X3700H for this route, but I'm not sold. What would be the best route for the highest quality output? Also, could I add a nice power amp to the potential AVR to power the front speakers later down the road? and would that significantly improve the sound quality or is the AVR responsible for the majority of the sound quality at that point?

What would you do in my position?
 
Depends where the priority is with respect to 2ch stereo, or Home Theatre? It sounds to me, that wanting highest quality implies improving the 2ch is the approach to take.

I would therefore look at a good quality integrated amp, like the Hegel and others, and make that the first upgrade. Make sure however you go for an integrated that has HT Bypass capability, which means you can add an AVR later and the 2ch integrated amp can remain in the system and drive the Left and Right speakers (with your music sources attached to the integrated still too).
The AVR then is responsible for the video sources and surround sound minus the Left and Right, of course you need to make sure the AVR has front Left and Right pre-outs to connected to the integrated.
Many people, including myself, take this approach - as you get the best of both worlds.

The alternative is finding an AVR that's suitable for music, I don't know if any are really that great without spending a vast amount. Perhaps an Arcam AVR might be the best way to go if wanting a slightly simpler single box approach as they tend to get good reviews for being adept with 2ch.

Personally I don't think adding a power amp to a low/mid tier AVR is going to do wonders for 2ch stereo. Because you're still reliant in the AVR's DAC and pre-amp sections, which are usually the main issue rather than the internal amps. I'm sure there's some improvement, but it'll not be commensurate with the spend compared to the HT Bypass integrated amp approach.

The only caveat with the HT Bypass approach, is if you want to use the sub for both music and movies. There's ways around it, ideally a sub with dual inputs (either dual low level or one low and one high level), but really unless you have a sub with dual inputs (the SB1000 does not) it is quite a faff to share a sub. So the Arcam/single high quality AVR can certainly be the most convenient way, if not the very last word in quality.
 
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Depends where the priority is with respect to 2ch stereo, or Home Theatre? It sounds to me, that wanting highest quality implies improving the 2ch is the approach to take.

I would therefore look at a good quality integrated amp, like the Hegel and others, and make that the first upgrade. Make sure however you go for an integrated that has HT Bypass capability, which means you can add an AVR later and the 2ch integrated amp can remain in the system and drive the Left and Right speakers (with your music sources attached to the integrated still too).
The AVR then is responsible for the video sources and surround sound minus the Left and Right, of course you need to make sure the AVR has front Left and Right pre-outs to connected to the integrated.
Many people, including myself, take this approach - as you get the best of both worlds.

The alternative is finding an AVR that's suitable for music, I don't know if any are really that great without spending a vast amount. Perhaps an Arcam AVR might be the best way to go if wanting a slightly simpler single box approach as they tend to get good reviews for being adept with 2ch.

Personally I don't think adding a power amp to a low/mid tier AVR is going to do wonders for 2ch stereo. Because you're still reliant in the AVR's DAC and pre-amp sections, which are usually the main issue rather than the internal amps. I'm sure there's some improvement, but it'll not be commensurate with the spend compared to the HT Bypass integrated amp approach.

The only caveat with the HT Bypass approach, is if you want to use the sub for both music and movies. There's ways around it, ideally a sub with dual inputs (either dual low level or one low and one high level), but really unless you have a sub with dual inputs (the SB1000 does not) it is quite a faff to share a sub. So the Arcam/single high quality AVR can certainly be the most convenient way, if not the very last word in quality.
Just to add, if you went for an integrated amp that has bass management and room correction (think NAD C399, Lyngdorf TDAi-1120), then you can have the sub attached to just the 2ch amp. You then set the AVR as no sub - which means LFE and bass is redirected to the 2ch integrated, which then in turn does the bass separation between main speakers and sub.

That works very well, there are users here doing this with great results.
 
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I think @TB Rich has covered all aspects with his comments. The main point he raises which is most important is, what are you wanting out of the system in the long term?

A good stereo 2.1 system for primarily music
Or
A surround sound system primarily for tv / film and some music
Or
Something that will do both - if so its then a question of do you want a one box or two box solution.

Once you know this it will allow you to focus on what to look for and where to spend your money.

For reference I have the AS501 with kef R3s, plus a bk xxls400, a denon x3800, with the R2c and a pair of dali surrounds. I know the AS501 doesn't have ht bypass but I have added a small marker to set volume and use it in conjunction with the denon. My sub has the high and low level inputs. This current setup allows for music and surround sound (my yamaha is far better for music than the more expensive denon avr).

My next upgrades will be some atmos speakers and an amp with HT bypass (which is a shame as the AS501 is a tank of an amp and very good for its price).
 
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Wow, thanks for all the info @TB Rich and @TheHighFlyingBirds. I really didn't expect to get responses so quickly, but you all went above in beyond. I do want to clarify several things. The only way for an integrated amp to work alongside an AVR is if it has an HT bypass, but I can't have a sub work for both set-ups simultaneously unless I have a sub with dual inputs or an integrated amp with bass management.

I am truly trying to get the best of both worlds with home theater and music, and having one or two boxes really doesn't worry me, so it seems my next upgrade should be an integrated amp with HT bypass. My question now is about which integrated amp and then down the road what AVR for the home theater setup. What will be the best bang (sound quality) for my buck? Should I invest in the Hegel and plan to get a dual input sub when I upgrade next or should I go with an integrated amp with bass management and plan to keep my sb1000? I know there is a lot of subjectiveness to these questions, but I would love to solicit your opinions. What would you do? Also, I listen to bluegrass, ambient, hip-hop, glitch-hop, dubstep, techno, and jungle--idk if that helps at all but I thought I ought to include it. I want my drums punchy while also having very good imaging.

Does anyone have experience with running Kefs with a NAD C399, or Lyngdorf TDAi-1120? Do they compare to the H120?
 
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The only way for an integrated amp to work alongside an AVR is if it has an HT bypass
Not quite, you can use a normal amp, but you must ensure the volume on the integrated amp (when its being used as a power amp) is at the same level as when you run the AVR room correction. One with ht bypass effectively makes your integrated amp a power amp.
but I can't have a sub work for both set-ups simultaneously unless I have a sub with dual inputs or an integrated amp with bass management.
You might be able to use something like a minidsp, but not sure on this.
so it seems my next upgrade should be an integrated amp with HT bypass
Dont think it matters too much, provided you buy the right kit so that it works how you need it to in the future, e.g. if you bought an AVR now make sure it has preouts for front L&R. Again it depends if you want to improve your music listening or surround sound first.

There are definitely people on here who have the R3 and tdai1120 combo, just cant remember who. Have a look in the lyngdorf thread.
 
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The only way for an integrated amp to work alongside an AVR is if it has an HT bypass, but I can't have a sub work for both set-ups simultaneously unless I have a sub with dual inputs or an integrated amp with bass management.
Yeah pretty much, although as FlyingHigh rightly says any integrated amp can do too, it’s just that you have to set the volume each time to the same point on the integrated every time you need it to do Left and Right for AVR duties.
So not the end of the world, but tbh most amps you probably want to be setting your sights on will have HT bypass anyway.

AVR wise, any recent X3x00 series Denon is always a good option. Just note that they tend to run quite hot though so definitely consider the space you intend to put it, i.e good clearance above needed. I had a Marantz SR6012 which is essentially a Denon X3xxx something (3400 maybe?) and that thing ran insanely hot - cooked itself basically!! I’ve recently replaced it (because I had to, when I say cooked itself it did!) with a Yamaha RX-A4A, and it’s great tbh. It run cool, sounds good, isn’t crazy money, so worth a look if not wanting more than 7.1.

For 2ch integrated, you’ll get tons of recommendations and there’s a ton of interesting amps I’d love to try or buy for looks alone like the high end Yamaha’s or Technics SU-G700M2 both with VU meters! Plus on the KEF forums on facebook, many people swear by the Hegel and KEF pairing, noting that it’s more often than not Hegel used in KEF demos at trade shows.
I think the paring of Audiolab and KEF has been great for me in my setups, so depending on budget perhaps a 9000A (pretty sure I saw an ex-dem online the other day for ÂŁ1600).

I’ve aligned myself to the analog side for 2ch, so haven’t gone down the room correction DSP amp like a Lyngdorf for 2ch - but really that’s only viable due to having dual input subs (Arendal 1723 1S). A dual input sub definitely gives you greater flexibility in terms of how you could build out the 2ch side of things, whereas a single input sub is going to push you down the room correction DSP path for an integrated, otherwise ballache to share the sub between both half’s of the setups.
As for dual input subs then BK or REL subs offer low and high level inputs, with low level being the LFE connection to AVR, and high level connects to the 2ch integrated speaker terminals. And as mentioned the Arendal 1723 subs have dual low level input, these subs also have DSP onboard so you can really get good integration and a corrected response for the sub in the 2ch setup. AVR’s all come with room correction like Audyssey etc, so sub integration for that is never a problem, but with 2ch getting a sub just right... sometimes on board PEQ on the sub can be a blessing.
Sticking with a single input sub pushes you IMO more down the road of having an integrated amp with DSP, otherwise it’s just not easy to facilitate sharing them. And on this path IMO I’d probably be looking at Lyngdorf ahead of NAD, simply because I read of bugs on NAD far more often. The other amp you don’t hear much about but looks very interesting, is the Anthem STR Integrated (though it ain’t cheap!).
 
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Great. Thank you both for all your insights and help. Thanks to yall, I feel all my options and limitations regarding how I can go about upgrading my system are laid out right before me. It makes researching and searching for my next upgrade and installing the actual equipment much less stressful @TB Rich @TheHighFlyingBirds
 
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