Upgrade from Denon 2400

jonjames

Active Member
I could do with some help around my next avr and possibly a power amp, if it's needed please.

I currently have the 2400 running Monitor Audio silver 50's, C150, Atmos modules, and minx 11's for surround.

My usage does not include music, just movies, TV, and xbox. Although the silvers do sound good, I'm sure they could sound much better? Should I see a good improvement just with a new avr?

My next avr will most likely be a 3700 or a 4700 to benefit from the better version of Audyssey. I can see that the 4700 has AL32, after reading about it, I'm still not sure if that is beneficial just to music or not?

If either are equal for movie performance, would I benefit from adding a separate power amp as well for my front 3 speakers? If so which would work nicely with the Denon? I believe you have to match the input/output voltage? If an amp would be beneficial, I would want to keep the budget for an amp around £500, but can be flexible if needed.

Thanks for your help :thumbsup:
 

Mr Wolf

Active Member
Need a bit more info to be able to help with your power amp query. How far do you sit from your main speakers and at what volume level do you typically listen at?

AL32 processing will benefit on all sources - music and movies.
 
I could do with some help around my next avr and possibly a power amp, if it's needed please.

I currently have the 2400 running Monitor Audio silver 50's, C150, Atmos modules, and minx 11's for surround.

My usage does not include music, just movies, TV, and xbox. Although the silvers do sound good, I'm sure they could sound much better? Should I see a good improvement just with a new avr?

My next avr will most likely be a 3700 or a 4700 to benefit from the better version of Audyssey. I can see that the 4700 has AL32, after reading about it, I'm still not sure if that is beneficial just to music or not?

If either are equal for movie performance, would I benefit from adding a separate power amp as well for my front 3 speakers? If so which would work nicely with the Denon? I believe you have to match the input/output voltage? If an amp would be beneficial, I would want to keep the budget for an amp around £500, but can be flexible if needed.

Thanks for your help :thumbsup:
The X4700 should knock out more than enough power to drive your speakers well. The AL32 is well regarded.
 

jonjames

Active Member
I sit about 3 meters away. I probably would start out with the new avr first but would add an amp if beneficial.

Volume is usually around -27 to -30 with blu ray watching. If I’m on my own then up to -20.
 

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gibbsy

Moderator
You will hear a difference over the X2400 moving up the Denon ladder. Audyssey XT32 will make a difference initially as it's quite a step up from the basic XT. AL32 on the X4700 over the X3700 then yes that will be another no too insignificant upgrade as well. I bought the X6500 last year which has AL32, changing a X6200 with AL24 for it. I was surprised at the improvement over the previous processor.

I also have AL32+ on my Denon SACD player and on that it is superb so I was hoping for an improvement in music over the old X6200. That multi channel music performance is better, surprisingly so and that bodes well for stereo music. This does not make the X6500 and by default the X4700/3700 that good at stereo music. In that department it still disappoints when compared to an integrated stereo amp when spending the same kind of money or even quite a bit less. I do not use my X6500 for stereo music, to me is simply not good enough.

If you want external amplification, although with the X4700 you certainly wouldn't need it, then I suggest you look at a stereo amp with HT by-pass and play all your music through that stereo amp completely cutting the Denon out of the music chain. Very easy, if somewhat expensive, to achieve.
 

Mr Wolf

Active Member
If you do the maths, at -20dB, you'd still be using less than 4W per channel in the maximum (+20dB) dynamic peaks of a movie soundtrack. So at those listening levels even your current AVR should be more than adequate power-wise. The 3700/4700 would certainly not need any additional external amplification.

If you're looking for more impact for movies you might want to consider upgrading your subwoofer as the LFE peaks are up to +30dB (i.e. 95dB at -20dB volume setting) and require far more power.
 

Mr Wolf

Active Member
A while ago I created a spreadsheet model that estimates amplifier power requirements based on listening level, speaker sensitivity and placement assumptions. This is what it shows for your LCR speakers at 3.0 metres at -20dB volume.

1618053188064.png


By default, the model de-rates manufacturers' speaker sensitivity ratings by 1.0dB to be conservative and assumes 3.0dB boundary gain, also conservative in a home setting.
 

jonjames

Active Member
Very useful thanks 🙏🏻 So I should be more than ok without a separate amp, in which case I would get the 4700 for the small cost more than the 3700.

I’m really surprised by those figures.
 

Mr Wolf

Active Member
Very useful thanks 🙏🏻 So I should be more than ok without a separate amp, in which case I would get the 4700 for the small cost more than the 3700.

I’m really surprised by those figures.
I would also go for the 4700, mainly for the AL32 processing. My understanding is that there are far more available than the 3700 so you're likely to score a much higher % discount if you shop around that would narrow the price gap further.

Re. the numbers, be aware that increasing listening level to -10dB (the highest volume level at which most people seem to listen at home, myself included) would increase power required by a factor of 10x.

1618056323083.png


This is about the maximum level you should ever run it at as it's wise to have at least 3dB headroom which requires double the power i.e. about 72W per channel if listening at -10dB. Denon "guarantee" their AVRs to have at least 70% of 2-channel output figure when 5-channels are driven which is 87.5W (0.7 x 125W) for the 4700 so you should be good for -10dB listening levels if you ever wanted to.
 
Very useful thanks 🙏🏻 So I should be more than ok without a separate amp, in which case I would get the 4700 for the small cost more than the 3700.

I’m really surprised by those figures.
Also don't forget that surrounds and Atmos speakers do not need anywhere near the power that the fronts require.
 

jonjames

Active Member
Mr Wolf - Those figures are interesting, I'll never be going to or above -10db, not with a new born due any day now especially! So at my moderate listening levels I should be fine, I thought an amp would also provide better sound but if that's not the case then I will stick with just an AVR.

CaptainJames - Yes that's true, not much on those channels, also I quite often run 3.1 or 3.1.2 so should be plenty of headroom.

I'll see what happens with prices over the next month or 2 to see if they drop, if not I'm sure I can get a discount due to past business.
 

Mr Wolf

Active Member
Mr Wolf - Those figures are interesting, I'll never be going to or above -10db, not with a new born due any day now especially! So at my moderate listening levels I should be fine, I thought an amp would also provide better sound but if that's not the case then I will stick with just an AVR.
I know. I just wanted you to see that from a power perspective an AVR would still get the job done even at that much higher listening level.

I think adding a power amp is unlikely to increase SQ in your case as the AVR is not being stressed at those listening levels. In your system, any additional expenditure on equipment in pursuit of higher SQ would probably best be spent on speakers/subwoofers.
 

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