Updating the speakers after extension

DarkConvict

Active Member
Hi,

I'm having an extension built at the moment, so with the ceiling ripped open, I'm going to install some ceiling speakers and neatly place cables in the ceiling for them + rear speakers. Previously it was in trunking around the skirting boards.

Room size for the TV area is 4.2 x 3.3m

Current Setup
I currently have Monitor Bronze BX 5.1 set, with Dali Alteco for use as height speakers. So 5.1.2 overall on a Denon x2300.

Planned Setup
I plan to buy Monitor Silver 300 7G with C250 centre, or Silver 300 6G with C350 centre for the fronts.
Reuse the Bronze bookshelf for the sides
Reuse the Bronze FX for rears (Subject to wife approval).
Probably sell the Dali Alteco, as I won't get much use of them as front heights above the TV.
Get a Denon 3800 or Denon 4800, and maybe a separate power amp for the front 3 speakers, as these models have pre-outs.

Question 1
Anyone know which Monitor speakers to use for the ceiling, I assumed i would get 4x C165 (~£480), but looking online there are tons of different ceiling speakers. Are C165 the right ones to get? The cavity in the ceiling is a good 10cm in depth as its the floor joists. - https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/custom-install-speaker-type/in-ceiling-speakers/

Question 2
I have is regards to positioning. I could do rear ceiling, by about 20cm, but they would be more rear than side for most of the seating area. Or i could put them to the sides of the sofa, but inline with the seating position. Which is better, front + rear or front + middle?

Question 3
Any recommend between Monitor Silver 300 7G with Silver C250 7G centre, or Silver 300 6G with Silver C350 6G centre?


Photos below are from SketchUp, something i used to plan the extension. So I've reused it for speaker layouts :)
 

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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Forget the surround backs as they too close to listeners. 5.1.4 should be fine although i would push the couch little more forward if possible so you don´t have to install the 2nd overhead channels too close to rear wall.

Where is your subwoofer(s)? Do you still use W10 sub from the Bronze package? That should be first thing to be upgraded if you got it.

Poweramp should be last thing to consider. Depending of volume used the 3700/4700 can be just fine, Silver 300 / C350 are easy to drive won´t need tons of power and the rest speakers are very close to listeners.

You can use the C165 if money is tight, but Monitor Audio recommends IDC version for Atmos due to better dispersion.

But you could also consider Kef Ci160QR as there is no requirement to match the overhead speakers to rest of system. This QR range is 2nd best under their THX ceiling speakers. Kef is one of the most known brand with the coaxial UniQ driver design so this surely great choice.
 

DarkConvict

Active Member
Hi Gasp.

Thanks for the details.

The Sub is still the W10. Its located to the right of the TV, in front of the front right speaker. (top of the diagram). In retrospec, i only went to buy a soundbar, but the wife fell for the 5.1, so we got it. A year or so later, i found the monitor subs aren't great, so i looked into BK subs. Its something i can certainly upgrade. Its just with the ceiling down, i wanted to get the speakers wired in at the moment. I could wire in a sub cable to the wall as well to allow moving it next to the sofa.

Just spent 40k on the extension (still ongoing) so an extra £300 for the kef's over monitors wouldn't be an issue at this point, so long as the have white grills to match into the ceiling. Only picked monitor to match the manufacturer of the existing kit. So you would go for Kef Ci160QR over the Monitor Audio IDC C265?

The sofa position is I believe non-negotiable. I've tried to float it before (better sound, closer to TV) and had stern push back from the wife, it must be against a wall ! In this case, it will be against hidden cupboards with a shelf, so there is some breathing room for speakers. If I do get to float it. It would add an extra 60cm, so 90cm from the rear wall, but I doubt it will happen. it was on the cards at one point, but she changed her mind.
Assuming the sofa position is fixed. Would you go with my current designs to have them close to the rear walls, or would you just put them over the sofa and use a front/middle ceiling speaker layout?

The rears were debateable, i didn't think they would get much use, most 7.1 tracks still don't use them much anyway, it was more than i have the Bronze FX as leftovers so why not. Even if the rears are not installed (I can sell the Bronze FX) and I can at least get it cabled in, just in case one day I can use them. Cost to cable it in, will be nothing extra since i already have lots of spare cable (I had a 100m roll)

Also, do you have thoughts on what wall plates to use, i posted a separate thread in DIY - Hiding cables - Wall plate/bind post recommendations?

I'll skip the power amp. I was looking at this a few years back, but never got it - IOTAVX AVXP1.
 
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DarkConvict

Active Member
Attached of photo of the current setup (before the extension started, as the room is unusable atm)
 

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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi Gasp.

Thanks for the details.

The Sub is still the W10. Its located to the right of the TV, in front of the front right speaker. (top of the diagram). In retrospec, i only went to buy a soundbar, but the wife fell for the 5.1, so we got it. A year or so later, i found the monitor subs aren't great, so i looked into BK subs. Its something i can certainly upgrade. Its just with the ceiling down, i wanted to get the speakers wired in at the moment. I could wire in a sub cable to the wall as well to allow moving it next to the sofa.

Just spent 40k on the extension (still ongoing) so an extra £300 for the kef's over monitors wouldn't be an issue at this point, so long as the have white grills to match into the ceiling. Only picked monitor to match the manufacturer of the existing kit. So you would go for Kef Ci160QR over the Monitor Audio IDC C265?

The sofa position is I believe non-negotiable. I've tried to float it before (better sound, closer to TV) and had stern push back from the wife, it must be against a wall ! In this case, it will be against hidden cupboards with a shelf, so there is some breathing room for speakers. If I do get to float it. It would add an extra 60cm, so 90cm from the rear wall, but I doubt it will happen. it was on the cards at one point, but she changed her mind.
Assuming the sofa position is fixed. Would you go with my current designs to have them close to the rear walls, or would you just put them over the sofa and use a front/middle ceiling speaker layout?

The rears were debateable, i didn't think they would get much use, most 7.1 tracks still don't use them much anyway, it was more than i have the Bronze FX as leftovers so why not. Even if the rears are not installed (I can sell the Bronze FX) and I can at least get it cabled in, just in case one day I can use them. Cost to cable it in, will be nothing extra since i already have lots of spare cable (I had a 100m roll)

Also, do you have thoughts on what wall plates to use, i posted a separate thread in DIY - Hiding cables - Wall plate/bind post recommendations?

I'll skip the power amp. I was looking at this a few years back, but never got it - IOTAVX AVXP1.

The front wall will be changed so it remains almost flat toward extension side so there won´t be that short part which is seen now on right hand side (right to sub) which has 3 pictures?

I would take the Kefs over C165, but i don´t know which would be better 265-IDC vs. 160QR. You could ask some pricing for both as you should really try to buy everything as package so you get best price. Naturally compete the prices of 3-4 dealers if possible.

I was going to write that Silver 300s would be in corner (right one) but that isn´t the case with the new drawing then, right? But can the subwoofer go to this new extension side or would it be better as a "sidetable" right side of couch? However that is something i would try first with W10 would it locate annoyingly or not (using 80hz crossovers for speakers).

For surround backs (behind you narrow) they should be placed 1meter away usually and all cramped together closely i don´t think is worth it. One option is to use Bronze FX at the rear wall as surround l/r (sides) leaving 20-30cm to side walls and mounted slightly above ear height not much as you want height separation to overhead channels.

Here is 5.1.4 system with couch against rear wall. Look closely and you see where the surround sides are and overhead speakers (2pairs).

IMG_7230-e1494861476164.jpg



Do you have OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) speker wire 14-16AWG or ordered some cheap CCA awg 16 or similar?

Would CL2/CL3 rated wire be required for in-ceiling installation if something happens (fire) and insurance company starts to dig around? Also fire hoods for the speakers. Will raise price sadly.

Much more important stuff to consider before poweramp..
 

DarkConvict

Active Member
Yes, the front will be mostly flat. about 10cm will still pretude from the wall. Would cost an extra 3K to flatten it, as you need steel beams from the lintel to the floor.

Your speakers are well hidden, same colour as the walls/ceiling. it took a while to find your surrounds in the photo.

I have OFC cable to use. I don't think they have it in white at the moment thou, and annoyingly the link redirects you to 2x4mm instead.

DCSk - 100m - 2 x 2.5mm² - White... Amazon product
I didn't know about fire hoods or different wires, so will look into that. (quick search says my cable would be ok, but fire hoods would be required)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Not my room sadly. The cable is good choice. Here is few hoods, not sure is there any cheaper ones available.

I would consider something like Monolith DF in white if you keep the same decor, assuming wife accepts the large box. Sadly the placement is quite critical so can`t say where it will sound best. I think DF would be ideal as not being too deep and the driver wouldn`t be visible/no front grill so more like big wooden furniture. Gloss white available too. Mono or Mono Plus (different driver & amp). If it intrests you i recommend doing cardboard mock up for wifes sake.



White:

 

DarkConvict

Active Member
Those were the models I was looking at using. I have concreate floor, so DF style would be fine. If monolith is too big, then I fall back to P12-300SB-PR
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Do the cardboard mock up so wife sees the real size. Also show her few pictures on this thread:

 

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