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Unscaling ?

Peter J Roberts

Standard Member
Hi I've been reading these forums and getting the Idea that I sould Get myself an Upscaling DVD player (I'd like a +-R/RW recorder with upscaling)

But do I need one? there seems to be a debate as to wether the TV would do any required conversion/Upscaling

So could somone explain Upscaling p/i as a little knowleage is a bad thing.

Currently I have a Sony KDF-E50A12U and a Phillips DVDR75 (Yes I Know to get a better picture I'll need to replace this).
 

loz

Distinguished Member
the TV has to do upscaling of some sort if the resolution of the display is higher than the source - which in the case of DVDs and your TV it is. Otherwise the picture wouldn't fill the screen.

The question is, is the scaler already built into the TV better or worse than one built into a DVD player? Or would an external scaler do a better job than either? Concensus seems to say the external is the best route - but it is an expensive route compared to the cost of your TV
 

Kalos Geros

Established Member
I'd avoid scaling players unless your display's native resolution is an exact match for 720/1080 pixel modes...Samsung players for all I know can upscale to 768 pixels which is a match for most HD LCDs and plasmas...external scalers can usually be set to a wider variety of output resolution than available with upscaling players...
 

JohnWH

Established Member
The de-interlacer in the player can be better than that in most currently available displays, so you do normally want this. If you don't want the scaling you can just set the player to output the video's progessive native resolution. Obviously if you have an good scaler/deinterlace you would output native interlaced res.

John.
 

ahin4114

Established Member
Kalos Geros said:
I'd avoid scaling players unless your display's native resolution is an exact match for 720/1080 pixel modes...Samsung players for all I know can upscale to 768 pixels which is a match for most HD LCDs and plasmas...external scalers can usually be set to a wider variety of output resolution than available with upscaling players...

There's no reason not to use an upscaling player even if it doesn't match your native res. Assuming that the scaler in the DVD player is actually better than the one in your panel, the panels scaler will only have to do a small scaling job, and it will introduce less noise and artefacting scaling from say 720p to 768p than it will scaling from 576p to 720p. If you can't afford the outlay for an external scaler, an upscaling DVD player can still yield good improvements over a panels built in unit.
 

loz

Distinguished Member
ahin4114 said:
There's no reason not to use an upscaling player even if it doesn't match your native res. Assuming that the scaler in the DVD player is actually better than the one in your panel, the panels scaler will only have to do a small scaling job, and it will introduce less noise and artefacting scaling from say 720p to 768p than it will scaling from 576p to 720p. If you can't afford the outlay for an external scaler, an upscaling DVD player can still yield good improvements over a panels built in unit.

I would like to see some tests that prove that.

As has been pointed out before, can you expect the scaling chips in a £89 upscaling DVD player to be better than those in a £2500 Plasma display where upscaling is one of its prime functions (and hence would hope has been subject to much care and attention by the display designer). Or perhaps not. Perhaps the chip in an £89 DVD player is better.

Not making a judgement one way or the other. I would just like to see some real rather than anecdotal evidence that demonstrates it either way.
 

senu

Distinguished Member
loz said:
I would like to see some tests that prove that.

As has been pointed out before, can you expect the scaling chips in a £89 upscaling DVD player to be better than those in a £2500 Plasma display where upscaling is one of its prime functions (and hence would hope has been subject to much care and attention by the display designer). Or perhaps not. Perhaps the chip in an £89 DVD player is better.

Not making a judgement one way or the other. I would just like to see some real rather than anecdotal evidence that demonstrates it either way.

True.. ..the meeting point of the academics of deinterlacing and the value of an external scaler have one common denonminator: Does the picture look better to your eyes?
There are variables which may make it impossible to have a straight answer one way or the other.

I have the cheap and cheerful Samsung 950, have had the Denon 1920 and a 32" Phillips ( 9830) LCD .
The Samsung at 720p looks "better" than 576p. The Denons PQ at 576 and 720p Have a better PQ than the Samsungs at any resolution and also better than no upscaling: ( why?? better deinterlacing?? better mpeg decoding??:confused: )
I am told ( from previous threads ) that any tangible benefits of upscaling are too minute to be manifested at such small screen resolutions .
At 50" and above such benefits will be more apparent.
The "scaling" issue will obviously be less of a topic once real affordable HD sources become commonplace. Till then, anectode or not, if the pic looks better to your eyes with upscaling and it doesnt cost a ton, for now the upscaling DVD players can justify thier place
 

ahin4114

Established Member
loz said:
I would like to see some tests that prove that.

As has been pointed out before, can you expect the scaling chips in a £89 upscaling DVD player to be better than those in a £2500 Plasma display where upscaling is one of its prime functions (and hence would hope has been subject to much care and attention by the display designer). Or perhaps not. Perhaps the chip in an £89 DVD player is better.

Not making a judgement one way or the other. I would just like to see some real rather than anecdotal evidence that demonstrates it either way.

Exactly the kind of response I was trying to avoid by saying
ahin4114 said:
Assuming that the scaler in the DVD player is actually better than the one in your panel

I can quite happily say that the scaler in a 506XDE is not as good as the scaler in a DVDA1XVA. Having seen a 576p and 720p image from one on the same panel, same disc, same cable. Obviously it's a law of proportionate costs, and anyone expecting a <£400 DVD player to outperform their panel in upscaling terms is probably lining themselves up for a good dose of disappointment. Anyhow, I agree most people paying 2.5K for a dvd player won't be rigging it up to a £1200 screen. My point was that Kalos Geros was making a rather sweeping statement, and that it wasn't always true.
 

Peter J Roberts

Standard Member
I'm not going to buy some fancy scaler costing £2500 all I want to know is does an Upscaling DVD player offer any advantage over a normal (say component - Pro scan) DVD when connected to a RPTV such as my KDF-E50A12U
AND what do all these numbers 576 720 1020 whatever mean also this p/i

Im not stupid I could have an educated guess but I'd like to know
:lease:
 

EricHitchmo

Established Member
Peter J Roberts said:
AND what do all these numbers 576 720 1020 whatever mean also this p/i

Im not stupid I could have an educated guess but I'd like to know
:lease:
:rolleyes:
 

ahin4114

Established Member
Peter J Roberts said:
I'm not going to buy some fancy scaler costing £2500 all I want to know is does an Upscaling DVD player offer any advantage over a normal (say component - Pro scan) DVD when connected to a RPTV such as my KDF-E50A12U
AND what do all these numbers 576 720 1020 whatever mean also this p/i

Im not stupid I could have an educated guess but I'd like to know
:lease:

The £2.5K was for a DVD player, it just happens to have a fancy scaler built in :smashin: . The numbers are the screen resolutions. NTSC is 480 interlaced lines (480i), a progressive scan DVD player will output a 480p image from an american disc. The uk uses PAL which is 576 lines, so 576i and 576p respectively. The new standards for HD are 720p (1280x720 progressive) and 1080i (1920x1080 interlaced). There's lots of talk about 1080p coming with Blu-ray etc, but for now these are the standards you're likely to have to deal with.

Tony
 

loz

Distinguished Member
Peter J Roberts said:
I'm not going to buy some fancy scaler costing &#163;2500 all I want to know is does an Upscaling DVD player offer any advantage over a normal (say component - Pro scan) DVD when connected to a RPTV such as my KDF-E50A12U

I think the above responses demonstrate that the answer depends on how much you pay for the DVD player.

&#163;89 (e.g. Tosh 350E) probably not.
&#163;600 (e.g. high spec Denon) possibly yes.
&#163;2k (very high end machine) definitely yes.

Anything in between the &#163;89 and &#163;600 is unlikely to be determined without actual comparison testing. It might be better, it might not.
 

Peter J Roberts

Standard Member
I that case I suspect that upgrading from my Phillips DVD75 which lacks Pro scan and component video to a SONY RDR-GX210 and let the TV get on with upscaling would be a good bet?

Any opinions

I also thought of the Samsung R125 but I would prefer +-R/RW and the Sony Brand but It does mean the loss of HDMI and possibly upscaling?

or do any of you know of a new +- R/RW and possiably Dual layer DVD with HDMI and upscaling for say &#163;250.
 
O

ohanlon

Guest
I figure this is a good place to ask my question instead of making a new thread. I am currently using a non progressive scan DVD player through SCART, well when I watch DVD's on it, is my TV (JVC-26DX7BJ HD ready 720p LCD) upscaling the content to 720p, even though I'm not watching it through HDMI, or is it playing it at 480i? I want to know as I am buying an oppo at the end of the week, and I don't want to set myself up for dissapointment with PQ. Is it possible for the TV to upscale the picture to 720p, even though it is only through SCART, and not HDMI or DVI?
 

Peter J Roberts

Standard Member
Probably Not! My Non Progessive DVD thought S-Vid to my amp then converted to component and sent to the TV is 575i (thats according to the TV)
 

senu

Distinguished Member
Peter
with your specific TV, and need for a recorder only a home test/ Demo can tell you what you need to know as only then can your eyes see the difference percieved or real.
Upscaling, whether via component with progressive scan or HDMI/DVI seems in different combinations of equipment to produce variable results. It is getting to the point where you dont really pay any extra for a budget to mid range DVD source which upscales.There are expensive scalers which are not the topic of this thread.
Your TVs internal scaler may or may not outshine the efforts of the scaler in the DVD player. There is really no way of telling without trying it out.
PQ quality in the sub &#163;500 DVD players is rather more dependent on the image decoding ( mpeg decoding and deinterlacing) and less on upscaling ability

AND what do all these numbers 576 720 1020 whatever mean also this p/i


The nos refer to horizontal "scanning " lines which is how the motion pictures are made up in a display/Tv. and whether the motion picture is displayed as rapidly changing alternate lines ( interlaced) or a full picture of lines is built up ( progressive scan)
The more the no of lines the higher the resolution of the displayed picture. Those nos relate to what the DVD player can output as often the TV will not utilse all of them
The P is for progresive scan and I for interlaced.
In real HD sources the no of lines is more ( ie 720 ,1080) Upscaling aims to "make up" these extra lines from a source with only 576 to give the perception of HD. The idea is to utilise the available extra resolution of HD ready TVs from SD sources. Does it work?:rolleyes:
 

Peter J Roberts

Standard Member
Thank You All. I have read some if not all this in other area's but I think some of you tend to bandy these numbers around forgetting not everyone fully understands what the Heck your talking about there was a time early in HC then mags would right interesting articles about set ups and how the equipment worked. NOW its just one big sales brochure.

You can't even find the answers on the Intenet like you one could try typing in say "Sony RDR-GX210 review" and you get pages of nothingness Ho they will offer to sell you one and ask you to submit a review but no real Info. Even the manuals that come with the items these days seem to spend more time giving you safety tips like DO NOT EAT the packageing or DO NOT watch DVD while in the Shower, than accualy telling you the good stuff.
 

senu

Distinguished Member
Peter Ill correct myself a bit there.
the I and :p are as stated.
The 576 lines are "translated" to pixel size : That is where those nos come from. It gets a little bit confusing if you refer to 4:3 or 16:9 picture ratio.
Simply put 576 is SD, 720 and 1080 are figures for HD
 
A

ancientgeek

Guest
I can confirm that playback of the DVD75 isn't nearly as good as the recordings it makes. They and other dvd's look better on other players (including my Momitsu). (My DVDR75 is using RGB through an RGB-component converter). It's worth having another player.
 

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