Understanding specs. correctly

Clem_Dye

Distinguished Member
OK, apologies if this is slightly OT .....

From what I've gathered from forums such as these it seems that there is still some disparity in standards between US and European-sourced players, be they HD or BR. If I understand things correctly, US players can deliver 1080p at 30/60Hz from available material, whilst in Europe, things are slightly different in that the frame rate will be 25/50Hz. Confusingly, it also seems that 24/48/72Hz support is also a desirable feature, both for players and panels alike. When watching US-sourced material the old 3:2 pulldown effect may still be present on some material, like when watching NTSC SD-DVDs via a component connection.

Whilst I'm still stinng on the HD/BR sidelines, I am planning on getting an HDMI/HDCP equipped panel as the first step in the HD world. It seems that I need a panel that will support all of these varying standards, or is it just some? Will I still see 3:2 pulldown effects when upscaling NTSC SD-DVDs? What's the impact if any of the various frame rates at 720p?

I've done some digging on the web and frankly I'm now more confused than I was before I started looking. Any advice would therefore be greatly appreciated. Right now, I have my eye on the new Sony 55-inch RPTV. From what I've in the RP forum it seems that the panel may not support all of the frame rates. If so, is that a problem that can be worked around by changing system settings?


Clem
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
Clem

No this is wrong.

HD DVD and BR will give [email protected], [email protected] and some players [email protected] whether it is from UK an US etc as it stands currently.

BR 'may' also offer [email protected] as well. Currently only one player on the market does this (Sony). Currently because of the way HD DVD works this is 'not easy' and until a way forward is agreed, we will not be seeing this feature. It is desired by many of us however.

All BD are mastered to 24fps. HD DVD does not 'have to be' like this however all disc I think so far do this for the main film. They are basically film based. There is a 'chance' that some people may want to offer discs with HD video on them shot at 25 / 50 fps. It this happens then an update will be released for HD DVD players to allow [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] . My own feelings are if this happens then the numbers will be low if at all and I feel people might even do FRC (like BD) just to avoid this 'problem'.

Re 3:2 pull down. Yes you will see this unless your video processor / plasma / projector can generate the original 24 signal or your BD player can output the 24p signal. It is a non issue with video based material, only applicable to film based.
 

Clem_Dye

Distinguished Member
Nic - thanks for the prompt reply and clarifying things. It seems that for now, I can go ahead reasonably safely with a panel purchase (assuming that I can finally convince she-who-must-be-obeyed). However, if the 50Hz thing does become a real issue, then I suppose that both players and panels would need to be updated to handle the change.

Would I be correct in assuming that a UK sourced HD/BR player and discs would [still] show pulldown effects if the panel/display equipment isn't good enough?


Clem
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
Most HDMI input at 50 happy already. The pull down will be identical whether US / or UK, cheap or expensive.
 

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
All BD are mastered to 24fps. HD DVD does not 'have to be' like this however all disc I think so far do this for the main film. They are basically film based. There is a 'chance' that some people may want to offer discs with HD video on them shot at 25 / 50 fps. It this happens then an update will be released for HD DVD players to allow [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] . My own feelings are if this happens then the numbers will be low if at all and I feel people might even do FRC (like BD) just to avoid this 'problem'.
Ahem... cough, cough...

Legends of Jazz - 1080i encoded at 60Hz... with the only Blu-ray TrueHD 5.1 track as well, so they really went for bucking the trend. ;)

Link to specs here. As I understand it if it's 1080i, so far on both formats that means 60 fields per second or 30 frames. This ties in with the PowerDVD bit-rate meter which clocks this MPEG-2 disc right up to 40Mbps in places, spending most of it's time in the 30Mbps range.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
Not sure finding one exception really helps any to the info people need to understand about what is what here, so do I say all film based BD are mastered to 24fps instead, like I said with HD DVD quotes? This way it covers the rare exception which is a video based recording which I tried to explain was different anyway. The fact both formats are both totally dominated by film based stuff currently.....not that 1080p30 is allowed for source material on BD either unlike HD DVD.

How does it output [email protected] then on the Sony ?;)

For info Chronus on HD DVD is a 1080i title you might want to have a look at Ian or I can bring it down with me next week.
 

Ian_S

Distinguished Member
Sorry Nic, I thought your post was implying that all BD were mastered to 24p, and hence something like video would be FRC'd... which sounded misleading.

BD supports more than just 24p, our previous conversations about BD using FRC for video to get it to 24p were I thought about mixing video with film. If the main feature is video too then no such FRC would be required under BD because the primary and secondary video streams match, meeting the requirement that any secondary video is encoded at the same rate as primary...

Is this what you were saying too??
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
I think I am just trying to get over the relevant points that wil cover 99% of what people will experrience. We both know both BD and HD DVD are film and video. How they deal with these is a bit different but for most people as long as they understand the film based differences for now it will be the solution to their problems. I see no point into going into the 24 / 25 thing, BD does [email protected] but not 30p etc etc but HD DVD does both etc etc as for most (all) of us it is not relevant day to day.
 

richard plumb

Distinguished Member
US HDDVD players will do mainly 720p/60 or 1080i/60. some will also do 1080p/60. In addition, some US bluray players will do 1080p/24


In the UK, the HDDVD players will do the same (720p/60, 1080i/60, some 1080p/60) and *also* will need to support 720p/50, 1080i/50, perhaps 1080p/50 for European sourced content shot at 25p/50i

Lets assume you buy a UK player. In theory any 'HD Ready' TV will do you because they need to support 720p and 1080i at both 50 and 60Hz. So you're covered for any HD disc that comes out. Fairly straightforward.

It only really gets complicated if you want to get rid of 3:2 judder. In which case you need to look for a display that can take a 1080i/60 input and properly reconstruct the original 1080p/24 images and display them at a suitable multiple (eg actually show them at 24/48/72 Hz).

The Display forums would be a good place to start on that particular question if its important to you.
 

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