1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ulzana's Raid cut!

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Harj, Jan 7, 2005.

  1. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34
    A favouite gritty western of mine. Picked it up yesterday in a HMV sale , just watched now and realsied some very 'choppy scenes', my suspicions of stunts involving horses being cut were confirmed when i checked out a comparison site (rewind dvd), apparently 17 seconds of horse stunts were cut, this meant reducing the thrilling and dramatic chase involving Burt Lancaster and some indians across a wild grassy expanse, one of my fav bits from the film!

    However the rest of the world gets it uncut, so while we can watch a woman get her brains blown, out, bodies stuffed and mutilated and a soldiers heart ripped out, we can not see a horse being tripped!

    Any western fans avoid (actually a good film all round), the best bet is a region 2 Italian or R4 Australian which are anomorphic and uncut, r1 is also uncut but 4:3.
     
  2. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    Er, surely the point is that the woman with her brains blown, out, the bodies stuffed and mutilated and the soldiers heart ripped out are special effects, while the horse being tripped is real.
     
  3. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34

    Im not sure about what care was taken about possible injury to animals, though im pretty certain at the time the film was shot (1971) and the director (Robert Aldrich) and cast (Burt Lancaster) involved would have ensured no undue cruelty to animals, just seems strange to me that the rest of the world gets it uncut and we in blighty dont.
     
  4. oaklandraiders

    oaklandraiders
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,039
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Surrey
    Ratings:
    +14
    Yo

    All to do with the way horses were taken down, BBFC doesnt allow anything if a particular method was used "running W" or something like that.
    Heavens Gate had a piece like this but I thought they put it back in when film was restored, however BBFC may have since cut it.

    John
     
  5. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34
    In the film the indians of Ulzanas party did use a rope to bring down horses, though not all the scenes of the horses being felled used this method as it was their way of cpaturing horses.
     
  6. oaklandraiders

    oaklandraiders
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,039
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Surrey
    Ratings:
    +14
    Yo

    Not so much the way the Indians did it, as the method film makers used.

    John
     
  7. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34

    meant to say that the film makers depicted the indians using this method, no idea how they would in actual circumstances.
     
  8. TarPot

    TarPot
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,569
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +194
    What about the scene in The Wild Bunch? The scene where they blow the bridge up with horses on it. Those were real horses sent into the river. Admittedly they were all retrieved, but that is a lot worse that being tripped up. Uncut everywhere!
     
  9. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34
    True, forgot about that, sounding like inconsistent censoring, also brings to mind Cannibal Ferox, real animals killed, not seen it myself, friend says so though.
     
  10. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    Cannibal Ferox has over 6mins of cuts in the UK edition including all of the real animal deaths.

    At the end of the day everyone has one question to consider:

    Should animals suffer for your cinematic entertainment?

    If the answer is "no" then the BBFC are making sure that message goes out loud and clear to all film makers.

    If the answer is "yes", seek treatment...
     
  11. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34
    ...[/QUOTE]Should animals suffer for your cinematic entertainment?...[/QUOTE]

    I hope you are asking a rhetoric question

    I was on another website lastnight, discussing soldier blue, the bbfc said that the last cut released, restored a large part of the graphic scenes but would still have minor cuts for the horse tripping scenes.

    But how bloody inconsistent are the BBFC? I aw this film on the BBC a couple of years ago with no cuts, I also have this film taped from sky a few weeks ago, which i still need to check for cuts. Funny how The Wild Bunch has horses thrown into a river, Apocalypse now has a bulls head severed and both pass?

    As for westerns, are we to assume that all westerns are to be treated the same then?Im sure there are many many more weterns with horses being flung around, grounded in far more distressing methods, dont kid yourself that this is the only film. What about the early John Wayne ones? What about Ben Hur and the chariot race, I recall watching a film a few years ago on BBC (a foreign film) that showed a tied up donkey having its throat slit open, why was that passed?

    Then i suppose all the r2 films with animals need to be re-assessed, basically its all ********.
     
  12. Setenza

    Setenza
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3,345
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +226
    Context, context, context.

    The bull beheaded in Apocalypse now was part of a village feast. It was heading for the pot anyway. Therefore the film did not provoke it's death.

    Running "W" have not been used in horsefalls since the Errol Flyn version of "Charge Of The Light Brigade". So many horses were killed or had to be destroyed, it actually provoked new legislation in animal safety.

    Terry Leonard is a recognised expert in horse stunts. He has trained horses to fall themselves on cue. Yet his work which has always been in accordance to the US humane society is cut on both Conan films and in "The Wind & The Lion".

    The horse falls in LOTR trilogy are all CGI, but is it the deed not the representation of the deed that is the problem, hence no cuts to Mr Jacksons work.

    Getting back to UR, there are so many different versions of the film, the definative one seems yet to be released. As for disippointed punters, well guys you should always use the resources of the internet and research a film before buying, particulalrly if it has a checkered history or contoversial background.
     
  13. Harj

    Harj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,164
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +34

    It was an impulse buy, i didn't expect cuts as i have seen it uncut (horses falling, tripped etc etc)on bbc tv, its also double standards as im sure that not every wetern has been cut like this, and also as i stated before, the rest of the world seems to think its fine, except the bbfc, just repeating myself here :rolleyes:
     
  14. grey torq

    grey torq
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    394
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +26
    I have to say that it's not the sort of thing I would expect a film to be cut for - kind of like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Modern films have to follow strict guidelines laid down by their own industry and what happened years ago may have been unpleasent but I fail to see how viewing it is likely to deprave or corrupt me.

    The BBFC is more and more ridiculous how can it justify any sort of censorship which is not in line with what the rest of the world applies? We can all buy the R1 or a japanese R2 uncut version of whatever the BBFC decides to censor - exactly what essential function are they carrying out?
     
  15. oaklandraiders

    oaklandraiders
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,039
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Surrey
    Ratings:
    +14
    Yo

    Watched Soldier Blue on BBC a few weeks ago, still very cut, the odd gory shot is in there, but a pale comparison to the shocking film I remember.

    John
     
  16. pjclark1

    pjclark1
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2004
    Messages:
    4,411
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Thailand
    Ratings:
    +271
    I have watched Ulzana's Raid many times on Tv, all the horse trips in, the raped woman scene cut.
    Releasing the Dvd with the horse trips cut, and the raped woman, breast exposed
    Is just a sick joke. (as are the BBFC IMHO)
     
  17. pjclark1

    pjclark1
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2004
    Messages:
    4,411
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Thailand
    Ratings:
    +271
    what you don't see, in the UK version
    (WARNING DO NOT CLICK ON THUMBS IF EASILY OFFENDED)

    trip 1 as the soldier rides away with the kid, horse does complete somersault
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    trip 2 as Burt shoots 1st Apache off horse, 3 horses fall over, with somesaults
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    trip 3 as Burt shoots 2nd Apache off horse
    [​IMG]

    trip 4 at the end of the movie Burt (under wagon) shoots the horse as Apache tries to steal it. poor horse rolls over and over.
    [​IMG]

    I wouldn't have removed the first 3 trips as they just make the movie look silly, I think trip 4 would have been OK to remove, as it adds nothing to the movie, and is particularly nasty. I'm amazed the kid and rider in the first trip were both OK, cos the horse could have rolled right over them.
     
  18. Garrett

    Garrett
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    31,367
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The best thief you’ll never see.
    Ratings:
    +4,017
    I thought some sort of legislation was brought in when in the filming of The Return of Frank James a scene where some horses jumped of a cliff with rider and there backs were broke, and lead to some animal welfare person being on set to see nothing like that happen again.
     

Share This Page

Loading...