UK Muslims not doing enough to stop Jihadi recruitment.

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Cameron will be making a speech today about the need for Muslim families and communities to take a role in discouraging their young who are joining ISIS.
    • Cameron will urge families to oppose ideology driving young people to ISIS
    • Will ask parents to stop blaming police for failing to stop Syria-bound teens
    • Some Muslims are guilty of normalising hatred of western values, he warns
    • This 'quiet condoning' makes it easier for violent extremism to take hold
    Of course there will be a backlash, with calls if speeches like this being 'unhelpful' or even Islamaphobic.

    But with too many of Britain's young leaving to join the fight, our PM has a duty to talk about the issue.

    David Cameron says UK Muslims are helping jihadis and must stop 'condoning' ISIS | Daily Mail Online

    David Cameron has started a courageous dialogue about faith and society - Telegraph

    Should he talk about the issue or brush it under the carpet?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  2. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    There was a good segment on "This Week", about this.
    There is a sect in the town where 'Britain's youngest suicide bomber' was from as well as two of the 7/7 ones, who have their European headquaters there. This sect as well as being conservative has a strict non integration policy.

    Diane Abbot raised a good point (yes I was shocked too), that for most immigrant groups we have a natural tendency or trajectory of more integration throughout the generations, but with Muslims in the East End (was here example) the reverse is happening, where women didn't even cover their hair most now do and it was fairly unknown to cover the face and there is a significant enough number to make you notice now.

    For many Muslim/groups instead of integrating there is tendency to consolidate conservative ideals, and robustly reject western values instead following an orthodox level interpretation.

    The part of Drewsbury I mention above is also 99% Muslim, (incidentally blamed on white flight) and with this extreme anti integration interpretation of religion, we effectively already have what I feared for the future of separate countries within our country due to extreme cultural differences.

    This is what the multicultural policies of the last 2 or 3 decades where trying to achieve?
    An alternative policy of multi ethnic/religious but with an emphasis on integration into British culture, obviously wouldn't aim for this and may be suspicious of organisations/religions that go counter to those integration and accepting of host culture aims.


    Also interestingly UK is not alone "Muslims from several other countries have actually been more likely to go there. Norwegians have been twice as enthusiastic, and rates are even higher in Belgium, Ireland, Denmark and (at the top) Finland."
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  3. Pecker

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    I don't think we should brush it under the carpet.

    But what evidence does DC have?

    Is he in the mosques, Muslim young people's groups, listening to conversations?

    What does 'not doing enough' mean? I hear regularly about Muslim preachers condemning terrorism.

    One thing I've heard locally over the past few days is that some government measures are being counter-productive. There's an argument out there to be won, but Mosques are not allowed to argue the point, just dictate that the other side is wrong. If they get a more radical preacher in to genuinely debate the issues they're accused of fostering extremism. If they don't then some young people don't take one-sided debate that follows seriously.

    The truth is we need to help Muslims to feel British. Constantly harping on about how un-British they are doesn't help at all. We should ensure that Muslims are free to say what they think, even if some of the more retrograde parts of the ideology don't sit comfortably with us. We should do this because we're a strong democracy, and I don't see any possibility of (for example) the non-Muslim majority being persuaded to force all women to wear of veil, or cut off thieves' hands.

    Telling Muslims they're not to talk of such things only underlines a feeling of un-Britishness. Allowing free debate is very British.

    Steve W
     
  4. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Do they care that we want to listen, or just want to dominate and turn the UK into an Islamic state?

    Tolerance* is the new appeasement, we all know how that worked out.

    *As practiced in the UK, were you can seemingly do whatever you want.
     
  5. nabby

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    Which is it? Listen or believe the threat of an Islamic state? And who is "they"? Do you honestly think that all muslims are a homogeneous group that think and act the same?

    Also, why is it that when it comes to far right politics, the correct course of action is to give the views a platform so they can be ridiculed and torn apart, yet for religious extremist ideoligies, the opposite seems to be the preferred option?

    The media also needs to be held to account. They'd rather interview one person with extreme views supporting IS than show thousands of ordinary British muslims condemning the actions of IS. This just fuels the flames of intolerance amongst the non-muslim population towards muslims living here.
     
  6. Sonic67

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    How exactly? I'm not sure any other demographic has had such problems. If people come to Britain shouldn't they already want to be British? Britain has done a lot to make them feel welcome. There are mosques, halal meat sold everywhere, we are more tolerant than France who have passed laws banning the burkha etc.
     
  7. Member 581642

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    Just for clarity Saville Town (the part of Dewsbury in question) is a relatively small area, and though a Tablighi Jamaat mosque is based there it doesnt follow that every muslim in that area attends that mosque. In the same way a Roman Catholic church may be in an area but it doesnt follow that all Christians go there.

    The "white flight" comment was given by the ex local MP and he said one of the reasons may include
    white flight.
     
  8. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Using a term like "All" is a bit strong. It needn't be "All." It just needs to be a significant number. A significant number do regard themselves as being Muslim first, British second.

    BBC - Panorama - About Muslim First, British Second

    I don't care about the thousands of Muslims who are happy to work and support their family and pray to Allah. People are bothered by those who while here want to plant bombs, cut people's throats or gun down cartoonists.
     
  9. Member 581642

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    I regard myself as being Human first and British second.

    I suspect many religious groups would put their faith first before their nationality.

    That in itself isnt an issue
     
  10. Cliff

    Cliff
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    But but many Muslims do not want the type of 'help' we would like to give in terms of making them more British.

    Yes, they would like citizenship, we make the country accommodating, allow Mosques, dress code, free speech, Islamic schools, food, observing Ramadam (not allowed in China!) etc etc.

    But that is all about the freedom to carry on as you would back in your country or your family's country of origin. Just look at Mrs Obamas visit to Tower Hamlets. Almost 99% of the girls were from Bangladeshi origin. Dressed in the same way as an expensive school back in Bangladesh. I am sure so many of the cultural practices will also be the same as back home.

    Not unexpected, by the way. I would do the same if I relocated to Bangladesh! I'd still be having my Roast Beef and wearing shorts. My children would also do the same as daddy.

    That is why it is disingenuous to try to say 'we must help them to be more British'. Because nobody wants that.
     
  11. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Everybody is Human so that's not saying much!
     
  12. nabby

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    Ultimately, being "tolerant" of someone's right to worship or access to foods they eat doesn't necessarily make them welcome. I see a difference between being tolerant and being welcoming.

    As a parallel example, I don't believe for one second that anything other than a small minority of black americans feel as american, or feel they have the same rights, as the white american majority.

    Likewise here, I don't think that many non-white people living in England would be considered English or even British by their white neighbours, friends and fellow citizens. Just because I go around calling myself English doesn't make the white English people I tell it to accept what I say.
     
  13. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Most British people are usually welcoming provided you fit in, and are not too many in number and try to change your town into a foreign land. Or bring a type of culture or religion that is very alien and impacts the locals.
    There are many pockets of immigrants in London, from almost every nation and I would say for the most part the British have been welcoming.
    But as soon as the numbers go critical and it starts to look like a small foreign town within a country, then it is difficult.
    The exception would be the Chinese who have been successful with their China towns, and everyone loves them!
     
  14. nabby

    nabby
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    Most immigrants don't deliberately try to change their town into a foreign land. The factors as to why somewhere changes over time are manifold and complex.

    And anyway, if us immigrants (me, 2nd generation born here) are British/Scottish/Welsh/Irish/English then how can we turn our own country into a foreign land? It's that type of statement that is at the heart of this issue of identity. The white British majority saying we need to fit in and become British, which we then try and do (and generally have been doing), and then we're told we're making the place look "too black or brown" and "less British" even though we are British.

    How do we win acceptance against that? If my dad (Indian) has lived here since 1961 and my mum (Indian) since 1971 and I was born here (as was my brother) and our kids were born here, at which point are we considered British enough that we're not "making the town look foreign"? How can we be unless we're not accepted as British?
     
  15. Cliff

    Cliff
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    To be honest I don't know the answer!

    But that is a slightly different discussion to the problem being addressed by the PM today. Some second generation Muslims are actively shunning Britain, effectively treating it as less than a good thing they were born here and want to join a new Islamic state.
     
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  16. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Yes China town seems to be an odd exception, which is why I mentioned before about where people feel alienated and there is active ghettoisation going on we might hold them close to our hearts as we do china towns now, just like Irish pubs are loved the world over (although this one is different in that they only take over one building and not an entire town).

    Maybe it is scale and perceived exclusivity that is the problem, china 'towns' are far the most parts tourist attractions as well as markets for exotic foods, the little Karachi examples are not seen in such lights often involve actual town and not just the odd street or a small district.

    Perceived exclusivity is probably present in most cultural ghetto's like for example the Orthodox Jewish one in northern London, and Japaneses or Swiss ones elsewhere (usually in more affluent places though), but they often keep themselves to themselves to the point you wouldn't know of them unless you looked.

    Indeed it seems to be that areas with large Muslim populations, where the are wholesale changes, white flight being a symptom. Other symptoms (and reasons for the white flight) are large institutional structures like Mosques dominate the local area/skyline, high street shops change to the preference and in the extreme exclusivity of the culture and the people on the high street wear strange and alien clothing as everyday where (not just for special or ceremonial reasons).
    I'll mention (but won't go into deatail) of less outward/visible cultural classes like Trojan horse schools/councils , Hate preachers (and general hatred of Western values by some living here and enjoying the benefits of it), political corruption (postal votes, tower hamlets etc), and the majoritively Muslim rape/trafficking and grooming pedophile gangs, all alien to UK culture and not expressed by other minority groups.

    To the outside observer it is as big as possible rejection of the host culture (including telling people not to vote, and trying to close down freedom of speech) and damn close to colonization, which we do not see with any other groups (AFAIK and I could be well off here) even those that segregate themselves it is restricted to a small geographical area and not in an 'ostentatious' or even 'brash' manner.


    I'm in no way claiming this is intentional or a plan by Muslim populations, but there has been nothing done to discourage the extent we're seeing as non conducive to social harmony, no attempt to put the breaks on when an area turns from a monocultural white one to a multicultural one then to a monocultural Muslim one, effectively population replacement.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  17. Member 581642

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    The same was said about caribbean areas when i was growing up in West Yorkshire, whole percieved "no go areas".
     
  18. nabby

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    So it doesn't matter if these [muslim] people are British (English/Welsh/Scots/Irish) or want to be accepted as British (English/Welsh/Scots/Irish). From what you seem to be saying, their actions mean they can't be accepted as such.

    To me it just highlights the fact that the issues lie as much with the white majority as they do with any of the ethnic minorities.

    It just brings me back to my post above. What is acceptable to the white majority in terms of them seeing us as British (English/Welsh/Scots/Irish)? Until that question is answered there won't be a resolution.
     
  19. nabby

    nabby
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    I appreciate your honesty.
    But as we're talking about perceptions and feelings you must have some idea, no? Assuming you are as bothered by the issue as others on here seem to be (which of course, might not be the case :))
     
  20. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    You need to hang out with a better class of people, but I get your point. The cultural differences between a working class white native brit is such a huge divide to a conservative muslim one, and few mutual social meeting places. Lets face it the majority of outward British culture is around alcohol where Muslims are forbidden to consume and many interpret that of never entering a place that serves or consumption of alcohol occurs.

    On the other side for many conservative Muslims their social orbit is based around mosque, where few if any white native brits of any kind have little interest in attending, just as they are unlikely to go to church or temple or any other religious building they aren't a member of. When it comes to women many westerners are confused about if it is wrong for us to talk to outwardly Muslim women, especially those wearing face coverings.

    A secular muslim, even one that doesn't drink alcohol I'm not sure the average brit could tell they were a muslim, might think they could be a hindu or any number of religions or even an atheist, and few are gonna bother asking. Just with Sikh, Japanese, Chinese, Hindu etc ... friends I have, its not something that is talked about really, as an atheist maybe that's more on me than society in general, but I don't think many people care when your down the pub having a pint together.

    If you think I'm saying, getting everyone down the pub does wonders for social cohesion, then you'd be spot on. Without a shared social spaces where is communication/discourse going to happen?
     
  21. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Lets not get petty, we've discussed a lot on here, if you really think intent everyone with the same brush "I'll say this only once", of course I don't.

    It feels to me like you are simply trying to score some cheap points.

    Any future pettiness I'll ignore, as the forum has too much toing and froing over tiny points that bear little relevance to the wider discussion and are boring for anyone not involved (and even them sometimes).
     
  22. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Lots of countries don't do that. What countries are more welcoming than we are? I have seen swimming pools offering women only sessions. My local one does it. I could list a huge amount of examples but i think changing laws, and diets served to accommodate people of a particular minority demographic is quite a bit.
    Tolerance is just allowing people to live here. Welcoming is adjusting your society to accommodate them.
    A huge answer on that here:

    Where is racism more prevalent - UK, US, France or Germany? - Quora
    I have no problem. I never have a problem with people coming here wanting to call themselves English, British, whatever. I have a problem with people who go to a new country, don't integrate, don't want to conform with those already there, don't learn the language, try to change things for them, the list goes on. I wonder why they came here in the first place.
     
  23. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    How would you define welcoming?

    If you act, dress and participle in activities in a similar way to your neighbor then they'd consider you British/English etc, and if you've been brought up in the area and or adopted the local accent then that's an obvious plus and can only really be picked up with genuine integration.

    If people self segregate by doing the opposite of above, then no matter how long they've lived here or how many generations in they are, cultural they might as well live in another country that reflects those values, and many people would be fair to assume that's where they are from. A British passport doesn't make someone British or English in the eyes of others, only behaviour would do that. Same applies to polish or any other group, regardless of skin colour.

    Other nationalities, like the Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh share a common culture to the point that the accent is basically the only differentiation, western Europeans obvious have a closeness due to geography and trade etc through time, but even here it doesn't come close to the cultural bond between people of UK nations, and they will be considered to some level foreign as long as they consider to act so. USA is probably closer to us than the French, we share so much, Oz'ies and NZ'ers too, but SA a lot less so.

    It has nothing to do with geography, it does everything to do with culture, and a small and sadly still present component on race/skin colour, in the grand scheme of things multi ethnic Britain is still in its infancy and that will take some time to be completely erased.

    Culture and Ethnicity have until recently been short hands for each other and it will take some for sterotypes to die, but and it is very important one, this does not mean that someone of a non white ethnicity will not be considered British by those they know, are friends/related to via marriage etc if they act as such.
    Most people even the most hardened racist once they get to know someone will at worst make individual exceptions, at best open their eyes and change their opinions/lazy thinking.

    So I don't accept your proposition, but do accept that many people still make lazy stereotypical judgments of strangers based on appearance, if you don't get to know your neighbor then I doubt that you'd be anything but a stranger regardless of proximity.
     
  24. nabby

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    Not at all trying to score cheap points. However, you asked in that post which I quoted if they cared that we want to listen or just want to dominate and turn the UK into an Islamic state. By stating two antagonistic view points on a scale which has many shades of grey I don't think you're in a position to cast aspersions on my intent.

    That's all I'll say on it and I'm happy to move on.
     
  25. Sonic67

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    Nabby you ask whether someone regards all Muslims as a homogeneous group:
    Then make a similar statement about white people here:
    Do you honestly think all white people are a homogeneous group that thinks and acts the same?
     
  26. nabby

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    And what if that adjustment is done begrudgingly? Your post indicates a certain amount of annoyance or at least disappointment in such measures being introduced. That to me indicates something that is tolerated rather than welcomed.

    I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye on this :)

    I'm not alluding to you per se. It's an issue for British society at large. There are plenty who believe being English is an ethnicity belonging only to those who are white and from England.

    On a wider point, how "Islamic" is a British muslim allowed to be in order to be considered as accepted?
     
  27. nabby

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    Do you think your views on muslims in the context of this thread, wrt integration (as well as pragmatic's views) are indicative of those of other white Brits?
     
  28. Sonic67

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    Plenty? Any actual figures? A majority? Only this is wishy-washy language to try and make a point.

    A British Sikh Saint George

    Not do any terrorist activity, not try and impose any laws that will affect the wider society, stuff like that.

    I honestly don't care whether they don't eat bacon, don't drink alcohol, or go to a mosque. I am not aware of anyone else who does either.
     
  29. Sonic67

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    I can't speak for others, sorry. White Brits haven't elected me as a spokesman.
     
  30. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    If someone acts like other British people in such away that they are indistinguishable from other people hence and does not go out of their way to be different.
    For all religious observance is one things, but what we don't want to experience is religious obsession like we haven't seen since the puritans on these shores.

    Once people go about their normal business as anyone else regardless of religion or lack of, and keep their outward religions activities to the mosque (as pretty much every other religion), while constraining outwards cultural activities to within British norms (i.e. those shown by all peoples regardless, of religion, colour or sexual orientation/persuasion), would be a good start.

    As well as the outward every day, not having rallies threatening to kill people because of a drawing or death to those that produce or drink alcohol, not trying to rig elections or enforce cultural practices on schools and the local community ect would also go down well, not wanting to harm or kill people because they aren't Islamic or have left Islam would be a nice touch too, would some way to showing islam change to one that is acceptable and integrated into wider British values.

    In general blending into the background is generally a good sign of assimilation.
     

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