UBD-K8500 lip sync issues - anything I can do?

MultiRoom

Well-known Member
I've been plagued by lip sync issues for as long as I can remember. It drives me insane.

I have a new Marantz NR1607, and my UBD-K8500 is connected via and admittedly cheap HDMI2 cable that seems to pass UHD 4K content and HDR where supported with no problems.

I have various content available on the UBD: Netflix, Amazon, iPlayer and DLNA streaming of Blu-ray rips etc. If I nail the lip sync via the amp in Netflix then iPlayer will be out, if I nail it in iPlayer then Amazon will be out, and so forth.

I've tried setting the audio out to bitstream only, so the UBD doesn't have to do any decoding or processing. I've tried enabling auto lip sync and disabling it on my AV receiver. And of course I've set many different variations of audio delay on the receiver.

Sometimes I can pause and resume something to make it slightly better.

When the sync is out it might only be by a little bit, but it just annoys me and I can't help noticing it. Is there anything else I can try? Although my cables work fine for 4K and HDR could they be a factor? They were a tenner each from PC world.

If I watch content from my Virgin TIVO, like Netflix, iPlayer, live TV etc then everything is synced and I never have to adjust anything again, although I don't get 4k down this particular cable.

Is the UBD just a bit flakey? It's running the latest firmware, 1010.

Thanks for any advice.
 

Nexsen

Novice Member
I've been plagued by lip sync issues for as long as I can remember. It drives me insane.

I have a new Marantz NR1607, and my UBD-K8500 is connected via and admittedly cheap HDMI2 cable that seems to pass UHD 4K content and HDR where supported with no problems.

I have various content available on the UBD: Netflix, Amazon, iPlayer and DLNA streaming of Blu-ray rips etc. If I nail the lip sync via the amp in Netflix then iPlayer will be out, if I nail it in iPlayer then Amazon will be out, and so forth.

I've tried setting the audio out to bitstream only, so the UBD doesn't have to do any decoding or processing. I've tried enabling auto lip sync and disabling it on my AV receiver. And of course I've set many different variations of audio delay on the receiver.

Sometimes I can pause and resume something to make it slightly better.

When the sync is out it might only be by a little bit, but it just annoys me and I can't help noticing it. Is there anything else I can try? Although my cables work fine for 4K and HDR could they be a factor? They were a tenner each from PC world.

If I watch content from my Virgin TIVO, like Netflix, iPlayer, live TV etc then everything is synced and I never have to adjust anything again, although I don't get 4k down this particular cable.

Is the UBD just a bit flakey? It's running the latest firmware, 1010.

Thanks for any advice.
Your HDMI cables won't make a difference. Audio data is carried on the same wires and interleaved between video data packets in spaces called data islands and since audio requires FAR less bandwidth if your video is coming through OK audio should be fine.

What you are experiencing "widely varying lip-sync error" between sources and even between programmes from the same broadcast source plagues everyone but most people don't consciously notice the problem until it is huge. And when they finally notice it they start seeing tiny error they never noticed before.

If you are interested Google "Audio Asynchrony Reeves and Voelker" and you will find many references to a study done at Stanford over 20 years ago which statistically proved lip-sync errors caused negative feelings about the characters even for those who did not consciously notice the problem. (Most people didn't under 42 ms error)

Although that research did not conclude "why" lip-sync error causes the negative impact on viewer perception it supports the theory that we (viewers) can't process the contradiction of reality when we hear sound "before" we see the event that creates that sound so we look away from the lips as an avoidance response.

Note that their findings used adjectives to describe the characters when lip-sync error was present like: more anxious, more agitated, less persuasive, less successful which are the same adjectives often used to describe people who don’t make eye contact with us.

But of course in this case – when lip-sync is off – the viewer is the one not making eye contact but apparently since it is subconscious the viewer is left with the impression the characters are the ones not making eye contact and hence the same negative feelings.

Since there is currently no information in the signals themselves (no watermark, etc.) to define when they were ever in-sync automatic lip-sync correction is impossible.

Aside: You mentioned trying the Auto Lip-Sync correction feature of HDMI. That is a widely misunderstood feature. For over 10 years "most" AV receivers have offered a fixed audio delay to allow users to set it to a value equal to their TV's video delay to help correct lip-sync. That fixed setting is all the AUTO lip-sync correction feature does. It lets a TV (optionally and most don't do it) send its latency values in the EDID session with the source so the source (if capable) can apply the fixed delays. It sends 2 latency values- one for interlaced and one for progressive video bu the difference is only 16 to 20 ms so not much better than the fixed setting essentially all AV receivers could already do when the feature was first touted. Most people think that feature is to "automatically correct lip-sync" - which of course it can't but it just "automatically sets" the same fixed delays previous AV receivers allowed users to set.

The main point is that a fixed delay setting - as you discovered when adjusting for your different sources - can't address the constantly changing error. You have to adjust it subjectively for each new source or programme if you want it perfect and most AV receivers don't make that adjustment easy enough or fine enough. (Which is why external lip-sync correctors from companies like Alchemy2, Felston and Primare are sold.)

Some TV's have added a user controlled delay adjustment (Samsung and Vizio are examples) but they adjust in huge 10 and 20 ms increments which does help but for most people to feel it is perfect 1 ms steps are needed during adjustment.

Other manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic,Toshiba, etc.) have unfortunately chosen to add a fixed audio delay to offset their video delay and don't allow a user to adjust it. I say unfortunately
because audio can arrive already delayed and the only way to correct that is to lower your audio delay below your TV's video delay and use the video delay of your TV to cancel the arriving audio delay. (Example: Audio arrives 60 ms delayed and your TV's video delay is 80 ms so you can add 20 ms audio delay for perfect lip-sync but if you TV manufacturer has already added 80 ms audio delay you can't correct it and adding delay will only make matters worse.)

For those TV's the only solution for perfect lip-sync is to take s/pdif audio (coax or optical) from each source directly to the sound system bypassing the TV so it won't be delayed and you can use that in conjunction with your AV receiver's delay (or external lip-sync corrector) to correct for delayed audio up to your TV's video delay as well as delayed video up to the limit of your delay device.

Some AV receivers have very low delay maximum delays. I've seem them as low as 80 ms which is barely enough to cancel a tv's video delay much less the additional video delay normally present but some have 200 ms or more nowadays. All of the external lip-sync correctors (Alchemy2, Felston and Primare digital audio delays) offer over 600 ms delay and all adjust in 1 ms steps. (optionally 1/3 ms for Felston but few need that fine an adjustment)
 

Halichopter

Novice Member
I have the same problem with the Samsung UBD-K8500 but on a specific Matrix 4K UHD disc. The same purchase had an HD version of the Matrix with no lipsync error. However no compensation can fix this because audio compensation on the Samsung or my Marantz SR7010 only delays the audio since apparently audio usually leads the video. However I have a couple hundred millisecond LAG on my audio. Adding delay makes it worse. Amazing we have this basic problem when we pay all this money to support 4K and HDR and Atmos surround sound. I called Samsung and they didn't have any suggestions other than maybe a software patch may come out someday. I think I have to buy a new player to play my Matrix disc.

Note: A Sony 4K HDR player does not have the problem with this disc.
 
Last edited:

kitp

Active Member
I have same issue with same matrix 4k disc on this player... did you ever sort it out?
 

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