Dismiss Notice
Attention AVForums app / Tapatalk users
Sadly GDPR means that, from 25th, we can no longer offer access to AVForums via the branded app or Tapatalk.
Click here for more information.

TX100 or AE700 - for those who have seen both

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by monopole, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm trying to decide between the Hitachi PJTX100 and the Panasonic AE700. But first a bit of history...

    I used to share a house with a friend who owned a Sanyo Z2. I always enjoyed watching movies on it, but always felt it was (i) a bit murky in dark scenes (e.g. pirates of the caribbean) and (ii) too dim for the screen size I preferred (about 2.5m wide).

    The distance from projector to screen has to be 4.5m in my flat, which is why I have discounted the Z3 (because the min. screen width for the Z3 at this distance is around 2.5m, and since this has the same lumens as the Z2, I don't think it will be bright enough). I've also discounted the InFocus LCD model as it's more expensive and also quite nosiy (I definitely want something quiet to run alongside my ultraquiet HTPC).

    So, in my price range (absolutely no more than £1200) that leaves the brighter AE700 and TX100 (I have ruled out DLP because I see lots of rainbows - even on fast colourwheel projectors - and always end up with a headache - it feels like a vice is being tightened around my head. They also don't have lens shift for both axes, which is essential for my room layout).

    Viewing will be via HTPC via DVI (digital or analogue, depending on which gives the best picture quality). Screen willl be a matt white wall for now - I can't afford a screen yet.

    So, has anyone had extended periods with *both* of these projectors? If so, what are your impressions?

    Worries I have about the TX100 are the reports of sudden bulb dimming (I'm assuming this isn't a macrovision issue) and loud fan noise (it seems like a lottery as to whether you get a quiet one or not). The thing that makes me like TX100 is its tweakability - the menus seem very comprehensive, allowing custom gamma settings (akin to a 5 band graphic equalizer) which I assume will help tune the projector for better shadow detail - and once you access the service menu, there are many parameters which can be adjusted to reduce vertical banding and colour uniformity. It's also very, very bright indeed (according to reviews), so it will go BIG! (from my long term experience with the Z2, big is very much something I require).

    Worries I have about the AE700 (I'm assuming that by the time I get around to buying, new AE700s will have version 1.07 firmware) is vertical banding (it seems like panasonic has a reputation for having the worst vertical banding of the epson panel using porjectors) and the lack of tweakability (compared to the TX100) for minimising it (along with colour uniformity tuning). Things that appeal about the AE700 are the smoothscreen technology, the dynamic iris used to increase contrast and the quietness.

    So, for those who have known both of these projectors, which would you say had the better shadow detail? (this is my main bugbear). Black level? Picture quality in general? Considering that I want an image between 2.5 and 2.8m wide, would the panasonic be able to handle this (in terms of brightness)? If not, perhaps I should sit closer to the screen...

    Any other comments would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    After reading through the AE700 tweak thread on AVS, it would seem I misjudged the AE700. All in all, it sounds like an exceptionally good projector, especially when you consider that for the cost of a filter (around £10), with the projector in video mode and tweaking the colours a wee bit, you can obtain a very bright image with a contrast ratio of 2000:1 (possibly a bit higher) without any clipping at D65.

    Does anyone know if the latest batch of AE700 projectors have the 1.07 firmware?
     
  3. Tempest

    Tempest
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    7,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Horley, Surrey
    Ratings:
    +2,247
    Am Interested in what you say as I too am looking at upgrading but fed up with horror stories!!!!
    Can you give a link to the areas you were reading this AE700 tweaking info from, or perhaps copy and pasts here the relevant bits for us. :smashin:
     
  4. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Here are some notes I made after the marathon session spent reading the AE700 tweak thread:

    Filter tuning from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5208615#post5208615

    The filter with a 77mm ring that screws into the AE700 lens can be bought from here:

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11106&is=REG ($46)

    or a multi coated version here:

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=11126&is=REG ($77)

    - though if you google for 81EF site:uk, you will find smaller filters for around £9 - which you can mount in front of the AE700 lens with some wire. I'd be interested if anyone knows where to buy the 77mm filter in the UK.

    And a great tweaking post (for VB etc) can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4606637#post4606637

    Also firmware 1.05 fixed HDMI white flashing and overscan issues (letting you choose how much overscan you want on HDMI/DVI) and 1.07 supposedly fixes some colour management issues, which may or may not help VB.

    Tuning without a filter (from the tweaking post above):

     
  5. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
  6. Murray

    Murray
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Auckland
    Ratings:
    +3
    I know you said no DLP but i would like to tell you my story,,,
    my first projector was the TX 100 and I really liked it. I upgraded to the 700 and really thought it much better and really the bee's knee's! Yet my latest and first DLP is the Mitsubishi HC900. Sorry to tell you but it blows the other two out the back door! If you want big and bright with fantastic blacks this kills the 100 and 700. DLP yes but Ive never seen a rainbow and Im real fussy! Colour is fantastic straight from the box and Ive never seen skin toning that looks like this EVER! The fan is a bit noisy on HIGH but everything else is so fantastic I would rather live with that than lesser screen results. If you must do a step down better stay with the 700 I say!. But trial the 900 at home first if possible and really see the differance! Good luck! :smashin:
     
  7. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yep, I really love the picture from DLP, but can't get away from the headaches I always end up with after viewing one (a friend of mine has one, so I've had extended periods with DLP). Demoed the 4805, but it didn't seem much better in terms of rainbows that the 2x colour wheel BenQ PB6100 - I guess I'm just overly sensitive.

    The 4805 demo was followed by an Hitachi TX10 demo (it was the only LCD they had for demo at the time), and although the 4805 had a wonderful image (apart from rainbows), watching the TX10 felt so much better - it was a relief, dunno how else to describe it. No fatigue, no headache... just relaxed. So although I agree that DLP projects a beautiful image, I just can't live with it. And no lens shift either, which is absolutely essential.
     
  8. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,140
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +564
    Took the words out of my mouth. That Mitsi looks a nice machine, deffo the type of machine I'll be auditioning in the future, but if it 'aint got lens shift it probably wouldn't make my shortlist.

    As for the TX vs 700 thing, they seem to be very close. The head-to-head comparisons I've seen tend to favour the TX but there's not much in it...PJ
     
  9. Bonesy

    Bonesy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,160
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Ratings:
    +28
    so, if you saw rainbows and got excruciating headaches, you'd still buy one because of the nice colours?
     
  10. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,140
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +564
    Someone recently said this forum had an anti DLP bias, I'd like to believe it hasn't - and if it has, it shouldn't.

    Yes, we should make the unitiated aware that rainbows may be an issue for some people, but we shouldn't jump onto every positive comment anyone makes about their DLP machine as an opportunity to raise the spectre of rainbows/headaches.

    ...even if they say their machine blows mine "out the door". :) (I take Murray's comments as the sort of OTT expressions of enthusiasm we all resort to when we've spent more money and can actually see some improvement!)
    ...PJ :thumbsup:
     
  11. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Have to agree. I happen to think that the DLP image is wonderful - smooth, filmlike, and absolutely gorgeous... but it makes me ill. I wish it didn't. Until 3 chippers come out, it can only be LCD unfortunately. Damn that fast eye!
     
  12. texass44

    texass44
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Ratings:
    +0
    Howdy,

    I demo'd the tx100 for 4 days at home. Great picture but I was ultimately put off by
    1) Noticable screendoor for me
    2) Noisy fan

    Now the fan thing may or may not affect the projector you get....luck of the draw.

    Screendoor tolerance is up to you.

    In favor of the TX100 is the "tweakability" of the thing...it is great. Also since you are going the HTPC direction, the TX100 is a bit more flexible in terms of accepting 50hz signals over the VGA port......I'm not sure about the DVI port but I assume it is ok.....stick with DVI all the way if you can.

    Now, having said all that I went for the AE700.

    The fan noise was less and the screendoor effect on the ae700 is practically non existant.

    I just felt the image was better, it's hard to explain how as I'm not a videophile as such, just an average viewer.

    I have connected my ae700 via component, VGA & DVI. The image is great on all 3 however the VGA port WILL NOT take a 50hz signal so forget it for PAL DVD's....you'll get stutter if you run the VGA port at 60hz and watch PAL DVD s.

    I use a DVI to HDMI cable from my GIGABYTE radeon 9000.......the image is spectacular.....pixel mapped 1:1 at 50hz no problem. The only issue is that the AE700 cropps a little of the image top and bottom, but there is supposed to be a firmware fix for this on the way (but dont rely on it...it may never eventuate). This small cropping (about 1/3 of the taskbar in size) does not really aggrevate me too much.

    Both machines are great, for me the ae700 just edged out the tx100 for my application (don't forget throw distances etc in your decision process).

    My best advice is to find places that will allow you to demo the projectors in your own home and give them both a work out over a couple of hours.

    It really is the only way to make the correct choice.

    Regards............Tex.
     
  13. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    13,177
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,715
    I've been experimenting with filters and calibration on my H77, and I've found that the Hoya multi-coated filters have minimal reflection compared to the Coking equivalents, and a good place to get them at a good price (with a little patience) is ebay.

    Using a smaller filter placed in the light path will do the same job, although it may not look as tidy, but it can be considerably cheaper than the 77mm range. I was using two 55mm filters combined until I got the Hoya 77mm equivalents from ebay.

    Just in case you're not sure why the filter works, here's a quick explanation - the lamp is red deficient (most UHP lamps are), so green and blue are higher (blue often the highest). Normaly you reduce the individual green and blue contrast levels down within the pj to balance with the red, and in doing so you will reduce the brightness of the white level, so you're reducing lumens and the contrast ratio (your black level will remain roughly the same). The filter however will reduce the green and blue contrast levels opticaly, which means you don't reduce contrast level (hence the green is +5 and blue is +4). The image will be a little dimmer due to the filter, but the range from black to white has increased. If you have a light meter, you will see the lux increase as you up the green and blue.

    Sorry if that's teaching anyone to suck eggs, but I found it interesting when I first discovered the how and why, so I thought someone here might too. :)

    The trick is to find the points where the individual RGB contrast levels peak at 100ir (full white) - you increase them one at a time until the colour stops increasing and don;t go any further up after that. When you find those levels, you then try to find a filter that will balance them all out without having to adjust the RGB contrast levels (though you normaly have to tweak something down a bit). You should then get your maximum contrast ratio in a calbrated state. Of course you will need Colorfacts or SMART to measure the colours accurately and find the colour peaks etc, but using someone elses figures may give you an image that looks fine and gives you the extra CR.

    HTH

    Gary.
     
  14. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,140
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +564
    Tex, excellent post. :thumbsup:

    It's this sort of first hand experience which makes this forum so useful.

    Luckily mine seems to be one of the "quiet ones".

    I can understand the SD comments but I seldom see SD on mine. In fact the only film so far where SD was evident to any extent was Titanic... perhaps something to do with it (amazingly) being non anamorphic?

    ...PJ
     
  15. texass44

    texass44
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks PJ....i'd back your opinions infront of mine with the tx100 as you have LOTS of experience with it.

    Both machines are AWESOME......like I said....the tx100 KILS the ae700 for tweaking in almost every department.

    If you demo the tx100 and like the image but the fan is noisy, get it swapped for another until you get a quiet one.

    Tee all this up with the supplier FIRST though.

    Do not rush your decision. A moment's haste can mean years of regret !!!

    I say again....you MUST demo both before you choose for the reason above !!

    Tex.
     
  16. thfccambs

    thfccambs
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    23,952
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    White Hart Lane
    Ratings:
    +6,898
    If i was you i would stay away from the panny ae 700,i own one and im not happy with it at all.Emailed paany about the VB the reply i got is here,ive only had my PJ 5 months.

    In response, we have recently received further feedback from our factory regarding vertical banding on the PTAE700 projector unit. Vertical banding will appear on some images due to the limitation on the technology used within the unit and the way the CCD has been manufactured within the unit. Unfortunately, there are no upgrades or fixes for this issue. We can have your unit in for examination if you still wish, however, if your unit is found to be within specifcation you will be charged for the uplift and inspection.



    So they expect me to pay for a return of a PJ thats only 5 months old.
     
  17. texass44

    texass44
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    14
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Ratings:
    +0
    hunts1uk......the VB problem on the AE700 is no doublt one of it's worst features. Fortunately I see none of it on MY unit....but I have read many time of people experiencing it.

    Have you tried the flicker adjustment in the service menu ??

    Any projector with the same EPSON LCD panel can potentially suffer from VB (I think the TX100 included)

    I'll say it once more.......demo the unit you will potentially buy and make sure it suffers from none of the following.....Loud fan noise, VB, dead pixels etc etc etc and anything else you have read about. Do your research and know what to look for.

    Good luck on your quest to find the holy grail !!
     
  18. PJTX100

    PJTX100
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    8,140
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +564
    You do see VB on the TX, worst I've seen was on 'Arthur' (misty film) and I'd suspect 'Master and Commander' would be the same. Again the TX scores in the tweakability dept because there are adjustments available in the factory menu for VB - not felt compelled to resort to this yet but others have with varying degrees of success...PJ
     
  19. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
  20. danjos

    danjos
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    Messages:
    211
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +2
    the tx100 definately can suffer from VB, but its luck of the draw as with any epson panel based PJ, my VB is moderate, my friends tx100 shows absolutely no VB at all that we can see.

    I would also say that you shouldnt expect any tweaks to be able to entirely get rid of VB, in my experience the effect is a mild reduction at best.

    I havent seen the 700 but im more than happy with the tx100, despite the common lcd failings its still a joy to watch films on it :)
     
  21. DEANO-B

    DEANO-B
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    516
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Leeds
    Ratings:
    +1
    Yes unfortunatly its pot luck! I have no VB on my AE700 but my mate has!! Luckily for him Panasonic has messed him about collecting his 700 for repair so they've agreed to give him a new PJ!
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice